Swift & Immediate actions

[Oryan77]

Am I overlooking something with Swift & Immediate actions? Casters can cast spells with those actions basically as a free action and then follow it up with a normal initiative action. So they get to cast multiple times in a round, but what's the trade-off for multi-casting? I'm not seeing it. It seems like a huge benefit without any downside to balance it out.

Also, can an immediate action be cast in the middle of an opponents full attack action? I'm new to DM'ing swift & immediate actions, so I haven't fully grasped the rulings yet. An NPC was making a full attack against a PC and after his first swing that did damage, the cleric PC cast an immediate action to heal a tiny bit of damage to the wounded PC before the NPC did more damage. These actions seemed to be getting out of hand and I ruled that the immediate action could go before or after another persons turn, but not during.

I root for the PC's and enjoy it when they save each others butt, but I was getting a little frustrated with all of these swift/immediate actions thwarting my attempts at running a challenging NPC fight. Reading over the rules makes me wonder if my ruling was wrong & if I need to just get used to these types of actions being a thorn in my side

 

[FireLance]

The downside of a swift or immediate action spell is generally that it is less powerful than a standard or full round action spell of the same level. A quickened spell is a case in point - it provides the benefit of a spell four levels lower than the actual spell slot used. The spell you mentioned appears to be close wounds from the Miniatures Handbook and updated in the Spell Compendium. Depending on caster level, it heals an average of 6.5 to 11.5 fewer points of damage compared with cure moderate wounds (1d4+1/level, max +5 as opposed to 2d8+1/level, max +10).

An immediate action can be used at any time - even between attacks of an opponent's full attack action.

Swift and immediate action spells do change the nature of the game as they allow spellcasters to bring more power to bear in a single round, but they generally do not change the resources available to a character on a daily basis (specific swift and immediate action spells may cause problems, but that is a problem with the spell, not the swift and immediate action mechanic). If the PCs can't simply stop the adventure and rest whenever the spellcasters run out of spells, using swift and immediate action spells to make earlier encounters easier simply makes later encounters more difficult.

On a personal note, it seems to me that if the cleric had to cast an immediate action spell to restore a small amount of hit points to another PC (presumably, he would have been dead or dying otherwise), that fight must have been plenty challenging.

 

[KarinsDad]

As a DM, it's easy to get a little frustrated over a PC tactic that appears to work well.

But, shake it off. It's only a game and games are meant to be fun.

Remember, if the PCs are casting immediate or swift spells, then a) they are using up more of their resources per combat and b) anything they can do, the NPC spell casters can do as well.

In my experience, immediate and swift actions add to the fun of the game. The PC Wizard can slow up the new monster that just joined the battle. The PC Cleric can save the bacon of the PC Rogue, even though it is not his turn. The NPC Sorcerer on the verge of defeat can fire off one more Fireball followed by a Quickened Dimension Door and both damage the PCs some more and get away to fight another day.

These types of events are actually fun if you view them that way. The NPC Sorcerer can become a reoccurring villain. The PC Cleric saved the PC Rogue and the adventure did not get side tracked with getting the Rogue raised or buried.

It's all how you view it. Personally, immediate and swift actions have added a lot of fun to our games. Think of them as just another game element and not a thorn.

Note: There are not just immediate and swift spells in the game. PHB II introduces some immediate actions which combatant types can use in the game as well.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The NPC Sorcerer on the verge of defeat can fire off one more Fireball followed by a Quickened Dimension Door and both damage the PCs some more and get away to fight another day.

He can? Sorcerers can't use Quicken Spell.

 

[Aexalon]

PHB2 sorcerer alternate class feature: replace "familiar" with "metamagic use without casting time increase, 3+Int mod times/day" -> they can.

 

[IcyCool]

He can? Sorcerers can't use Quicken Spell.

He can if he's also got Arcane Preparation...

 

[Deset Gled]

So they get to cast multiple times in a round, but what's the trade-off for multi-casting? I'm not seeing it. It seems like a huge benefit without any downside to balance it out.

Reading over the rules makes me wonder if my ruling was wrong & if I need to just get used to these types of actions being a thorn in my side

Unfortunately, you have it right. Swift spells are effectively a backdoor to all of the benefits and problems caused by 3.0 Haste. This is a Bad Thing, IMO. Immediate actions are even worse.

 

[KarinsDad]

Unfortunately, you have it right. Swift spells are effectively a backdoor to all of the benefits and problems caused by 3.0 Haste. This is a Bad Thing, IMO. Immediate actions are even worse.

Not all of the benefits. The Swift or Immediate spell is of lower effectiveness than the additional "any spell" of 3.0 Haste.

And, Quicken Spell has been a core feature for 6 years now.

Additionally, with the new material out, most classes can perform swift (or immediate) actions. Course, some core magic items (such as Boots of Speed) can effectively do this as well.

 

[FireLance]

Unfortunately, you have it right. Swift spells are effectively a backdoor to all of the benefits and problems caused by 3.0 Haste. This is a Bad Thing, IMO. Immediate actions are even worse.

It might be a back door, but the cost of admission has gone up significantly. While I do understand that not everyone will like swift and immediate actions, I fail to see why it is inherently a Bad Thing.

 

[Deset Gled]

And, Quicken Spell has been a core feature for 6 years now.

Additionally, with the new material out, most classes can perform swift (or immediate) actions. Course, some core magic items (such as Boots of Speed) can effectively do this as well.

It might be a back door, but the cost of admission has gone up significantly. While I do understand that not everyone will like swift and immediate actions, I fail to see why it is inherently a Bad Thing.

I see the cost of admission for most swift spells to be siginificantly lower than what it was with 3.0. With Haste, you had to use one spell at the beginning of an encounter to get the effect for a while. Swift spells can be cast without the need for that first spell, which makes them much more accessible to a caster when they are really needed (and cuts down on the total number of spells used). Second, Quicken requires both a feat and raises the spell level by +4. Many swift spells, however, are low level spells (Wraithstrike, Swift Fly) that are supposedly balanced by a shorter duration. This is allows swift spells to be cast at much earlier levels than previously possible.

It is true that Haste allowed you to cast any combination of spells you wanted, so it could be a bit more potent. However, the beneifits described above more than make up for this fact, especially if you consider that many of the swift spells are exactly the ones that a caster would want to cast when hasted. Considering this, the biggest downside of swift spells vs. 3.0 haste is that you have to know many spells to replace one, which really just means that the Sorcerer is being screwed over (again).

I would also like to point out that I am not against the concept of a Swift Action, per se. Rather, I am ranting specifically about swift (and immediate) spells. I really do like swift actions in general, and think that the mechanics are a great add on to the system. I just think that spells that are designed to have a casting time of a swift action are a Bad Thing.