Switching from bow to swords - how does it work?

[Aulirophile]

LOL at this thread. I thought I got a clear answer within the first half dozen posts but then I made the mistake of reading the next few pages and now I'm rather confused.

For simplicity's sake, I'll stick with my character: a ranger with Quick Draw and a paired bastard sword. Is this right?

Minor action to stow the bow (or free action to drop it)
Move -> Minor action to draw the paired weapon
Free action to split the weapon
Standard action to attack

The one confusing part is that Quick Draw allows drawing a weapon and attacking as part of the same standard action, but with a paired weapon you have to split it inbetween the two. If the sequence doesn't matter then I wouldn't have to use my move action to draw the weapon; however, sequentially it doesn't seem to make sense that the drawing of the weapon could "leap frog" splitting and be part of the attack.

Or in this case could drawing and splitting be all part of the attack action?

There isn't any RAW text which says when non-triggered free actions happen, when they can happen, or when they can't happen. So there isn't an actual rules answer.

The latest podcast would suggest that the splitting cannot happen during another action, so you couldn't quickdraw as part of the attack (triggered free action, technically) and then split them (non-triggered free action).

Of course this means you can't interrupt someone who is talking without a triggered power that allows you to do so. Which I find infinitely amusing. Really just a bad call on the devs part, they need to look at non-triggered free action timing carefully.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Thrown weapons are ammunition when used in a ranged attack, actually. The rule is that if you are using non-magical thrown weapons you can draw them as a free action for each target of an area attack, so long as you have enough. Same way if you're dual attacking with a Superior Xbow you can load it as a free action for attacks 2-x.

Which update was that in?

Edit: Sorry, that was a dumb question: obviously, it should be in the PH updates... I couldn't find it under weapons (just a change to the rapier) or how to read powers, though... so I should say, where is it updated..? I'd also checked the FAQ, so it's not there, and it was a controversy at some point, so it can't have been spelled out in the PH....

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There isn't any RAW text which says when non-triggered free actions happen, when they can happen, or when they can't happen. So there isn't an actual rules answer.

The latest podcast would suggest that the splitting cannot happen during another action, so you couldn't quickdraw as part of the attack (triggered free action, technically) and then split them (non-triggered free action).

Of course this means you can't interrupt someone who is talking without a triggered power that allows you to do so. Which I find infinitely amusing. Really just a bad call on the devs part, they need to look at non-triggered free action timing carefully.

I'm not following you here. Paired Weapon contains a specific rule that states that if you have the Quick Draw feat then splitting is a free action. Thus Mercurius' sequence appears to me to be exactly and indisputably RAW. He's using the free action between the minor action draw and the standard action attack. Now, MAYBE, depending on how you interpret things he could even skip the minor action and do the draw/split/attack as 2 free actions taken during the attack. This would clearly have been the case up until this podcast. Personally I don't consider a podcast to be a rules source though, and I consider the interpretation they've taken there to be HIGHLY suspect since it contradicts numerous other examples and creates various problems. However, it is certainly legitimate to say that there is at the very least confusion on the topic of free actions within other actions. I'd say that confusion goes right to the top...

Frankly at my table Mercurius can draw->split->attack as a single action given that he's spent a feat and taken a very specific weapon enchantment in order to get there.

 

[Aulirophile]

Which update was that in?

Edit: Sorry, that was a dumb question: obviously, it should be in the PH updates... I couldn't find it under weapons (just a change to the rapier) or how to read powers, though... so I should say, where is it updated..? I'd also checked the FAQ, so it's not there, and it was a controversy at some point, so it can't have been spelled out in the PH....

So you think there is no conflict about things that are explicit in the PHB? Interesting.

If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a
ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one
piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re
using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.

RC 105 has the same rule. .

 

[Tony Vargas]

Generally, there won't be too much controversy about something unless there's something vague or hard to find - or subject to being willfully mis-interpreted to someone's advantage.

Looking back over the PH, the entry under 'Load' makes it perfectly clear that you /do/ need to load your weapon to use a multi-attack or AE attack with it, but that the power 'accounts for the extra load time.' There's nothing similar with thrown weapons, though /Light/ Thrown, specifically, says that they do less damage but some powers let you throw more than one... which is kinda odd, as if throwing two daggers was somehow no better than throwing one hand-axe.

I was sure this had been clarified or updated at some point, but aparently not. :shrug: Once magic weapons come into it, it's a non-issue, so I guess it's easy enough to just not worry about it, like the RC 'unlimmitted ammo' suggestion.

Too bad, it would have been a clear precedent if quickdraw let you do it.

However, though less clear, it certainly seems fair to say that, if a character w/o quickdraw can draw-and-throw up to 24 additional daggers in a standard action (Cloud of Steel), it wouldn't be too unfair to let another /with/ quickdraw draw two daggers in a standard action (Twin Strike).

 

[mneme]

Mercurious: if you're trying to be strict and take the murphy's law approach that OSEZNO advocates, the most recent claims regarding free actions are that they don't interrupt actions unless they're triggered or expressly modify another action, so you'd have to use the move to draw.

Clear intent, (and practice prior to Rules Compendium/the latest D&D talk radio) was that free actions could be used in the middle of other actions -- and the rules text on Paired weapon was clearly written with that in mind. So the clear intent of the rules is that you can quick draw to draw a paired weapon, then split it as a free action and attack--that's why Paired weapons have a special rule just for Quick Draw!