Sword and Sorcery has been done to death.

Psion said:
Precisely.

Elton has been participating in another thread in which someone, upon having me sum up Darkover (which uses the "Lost Colony" fantasy paradigm, like Pern and The Darkfire Trilogy), described it as "sounding like science fiction."

Which is laughable.
Edgar Rice Burroughs Princess of Mars is nominally science-based, but for the most part the science is so woolly it might as well be magic. The one bit that is accurate is that John Carter can jump further on Mars. But it's also got telepathy, anti-gravity and much other nonsense.

I wouldn't call it Sword & Sorcery or High Fantasy though. Scientific Romance maybe? Moorcock calls all sci-fi and fantasy by the same name - Romantic Fiction.
A Princess of Mars is not pure "science fiction" actually, but it's still speculative fiction (Tracy Hickman calls sci-fi, fantasy, and horror fantastic fiction -- I agree with him). It isn't as "scientific" as At the Earth's Core or Tarzan of the Apes, in that it presents a fantastic version of Mars.

People call it Sword-and-Planet, Planetary Romance, or something else.
 

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EricNoah said:
I sorta think I understand what you're saying, though -- there are many flavors of "fantasy" that could taste good in an RPG like D&D. Clerics-and-wizards-and-breastplates-and-swords-and-magic missle-and-fireball is just one of many ways to play. A diet of mac and cheese (or pizza or whatever your staple food is) is fine, but sometimes you just want something different. Psionics can be one avenue to achieving that, without sacrificing playability or "balance."

Or maybe I missed the point of the rant. :)
That's why it is a rant. A rant isn't inherently logical to follow. It's a way for someone to blow off steam, or in my case, "head off the Fortinbrases of Enworld at the pass" before they say psionics in D&D suck. Psion, Joe Kushner, and Dragonlancer knows who I'm talking about, although the Fortinbrases don't know what they are talking about. :)

Eric, the point is this. Every time I turn around, I get the feeling that most everyone is following the same formula with Dungeons and Dragons. Medieval City, fairies, GURPS Tech Level 3, etc. Hardly any world has been built differently. There's Barsoomcore's version of Barsoom, Judge's Guild's The Wilderlands of High Fantasy, and Athas. Possibly even Shadow World/Kulthea. But most everyone follows the same paths forged by Ed Greenwood, E. Gary Gygax, Michael Moorcock, Tad Williams, Robert Jordan, and Weis and Hickman. These herald back to the fairy tales of yester year.

Tradition says that these old formulae work, and they work well. Even I designed fantasy worlds that were medieval/Celtic in nature. However, looking at the world's scope and history, I figure that the faerie tale, high fantasy, and sword and sorcery models for fantasy is just a scratch on the surface. There is a lot people can explore and take inspiration from.

Here are a few:
* the Greek myths
* Ancient Egypt
* The Bible
* Plato's fantasy allegories (Atlantis, for one)
* Chinese mythology.
* Indian mythology (the Ramayana would be a grand inspiration!)
* Gilgamesh
* Amerindian mythos
* the Mythos of the South Pacific.

Not only that, but published fantasy is chock full of those who went off the "beaten path." Anne McCaffrey and Pern, Darkover, Wild Seed by Octavia Butler, the Seventh Son series by Orson Scott Card, the Deryni novels. A few of Piers Anthony's works . . . Chaos Mode for one. The two Starshield novels.

It's just that the majority just does the same thing over and over again. There is really no widespread innovation in campaign worlds. Sure, everyone's campaign world is wildly different--as no campaign is ever alike. However, most DMs won't venture beyond that certain Genre. So, what do we get as a result? Dungeon modules which are "boring" and uninnovative which explore the same setting over and over again for easy integration. It's a waste, really.

I'd love to see more variation in published modules, in Dungeon or anywhere else. As far as I know, since Athas, nobody has ever broke new ground as far as doing something really different.

edit: Alright, I forgot about Iron Kingdoms. :(
 
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I agree with you with regards to the overall flavour most people tend to go for. The campaign I am running at the moment is loosely based on a Roman/Greek style culture as the main "tech" base of my world. I also have an Egyptian style country, a mongolian, and a gaulish style country. I was originally going to use a diffenent magic system, but after experimenting with my gaming groups with different magic systems I have found that they don't have the inclination to learn another system. (gah) Because I want to have fun, and I want my players to have fun, I have foudn that I need to compromise on some aspects.
 

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Sir Elton said:
<rant>
What's more sick is that many are based off tolkien's work. I realized how sick I really was on the sword and sorcery genre of world settings when I was writing down my current project. </rant>
As an Author you should know the difference between epic fantasy like Tolkien and Sword and Sorcerery like Conan or Imaro, and when they both overlap like Elric of Melnibone.
Fact is I know only 3 S&S Settings for D20/OGL Conan, Valus and perhaps Midnight.
Epic Fantasy is Dragonlance, but there it end AFAIK.
The Standard D&D/D20 Setting like Forgotten Realms is High Fantasy - High Magic.

I even wrote up a treatment for a campaign setting, describing some details on how I want the world to be. It was ingenius (at least in my mind), since no one has tried something in quite the same way since Athas.
Athas has tones of S&S, the defilers.

I'm going try experimenting with ground that hasn't been covered since the Deryni novels and Darkover novels.
Nice but if d20 is the rigtht toll for it?

Sir Elton said:
Michael Moorcock, Tad Williams, Robert Jordan,:(
Neither Elric nor Jordan WoT are TL 3 medieval xyz, WoT is renaissance TL 4.
 
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Doug McCrae said:
Edgar Rice Burroughs Princess of Mars is nominally science-based, but for the most part the science is so woolly it might as well be magic. The one bit that is accurate is that John Carter can jump further on Mars. But it's also got telepathy, anti-gravity and much other nonsense.

I wouldn't call it Sword & Sorcery or High Fantasy though. Scientific Romance maybe? Moorcock calls all sci-fi and fantasy by the same name - Romantic Fiction.
I've always been partial to the moniker "Planetary Romance". A genre which also includes the likes of Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers, etc.

Aside: keep in mind when these sorts of stories were written. John Carter hit the scene at a time when physicists were just comming to grips with radiation. So inventing "rays" that powered the characters anti-grav tech was prety good. No, I'm not saying that he was writting hard sci-fi. I'm saying that he paid lip service to the science of his time while writting in plot devices that were essentially magical. Much the same way that Star Trek writters do today (quick, its the third act! Re-align the deflector array to "plot resolutioun" :p ).

Back to topic. In its more highly developed form Planetary Romance gives way to Space Opera (Star Wars). The defining trait here being that nearly all that lip service to science disapears in favor of an intentional mimicry of mythic cycles (here comes the messiah folks, and he's carrying a laser-sword).
 


Sir Elton said:
<rant>
Remember when I said I was inspired by Frank Frazetta? Well, I got opposite inspiration from the many sword-and-sorcery and medieval romance settings for d20. There are so many it's like kicking a dead horse.
There are many of the latter. There are hardly any of the former. Sword-and-sorcery is actually a very under-represented genre in rpgs.
 


Well, I know one DM who hates having psionics in his D&D game. He doesn't think psionics sucks or is overpowered. He just has flavor issues - to him, psionics are the domain of science fiction. It's basically magic with a fresh coat of pseudoscience paint to fit in to a high-tech setting, and back-porting that description to a new form of fantasy setting doesn't quite fit.

--Impeesa--
 

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