Swordmage: Help grasping the concept, please

interwyrm

First Post
the OP seemed more to be looking for something that infused Martial and Arcane, whereas Paladins are Divine.

Throwing my hat in for the Sorcarian! (Barberor?) over the other non-swordmage options. I realize that barbarians are primal, not martial... but their attacks are exclusively weapon based and their primal effects can be reflavored as arcane. Hybrid paladin mark is extremely weak, and this hybrid has extra synergy if you take the barbarian armor for your hybrid talent. Hide + bonus, + str to AC.

Sorceror|Warlord has also got good stat synergy.

For warrior mage type, my favorite is probably assault swordmage | feylock. Take swordburst and eldritch strike for the at-wills. Congratulations, when you teleport to your mark, you now slide them away from your ally and do warlock curse damage (if you haven't already this round). Later on you can take feytouched for the slashing damage on teleport, which I like to envision as slicing through reality with your sword. Add feycharger cheese to taste.
 

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renau1g

First Post
Can someone confirm that I can use my sword for Spellstorm Mage powers without having to take a feat to do it? (sorry for the tangent)

I believe you require the arcane implement proficiency feat as the heavy blades are not an implement for wizards (it's kinda silly that you need arcane implement proficiency for heavy blades, but it is what it is)
 

Incendax

First Post
I'm very fond of Sweeping Frostblade.

It's enemy only, a close burst, and even immobilizes on a miss. Combine it with anything that pushes the target back 1 square and you can make several melee enemies lose at least one turn. I'm very fond of a Lightning Weapon and Mark of Storms for this purpose but there are several ways to accomplish it.

Alternately, just be able to teleport out of the area.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Later on you can take feytouched for the slashing damage on teleport, which I like to envision as slicing through reality with your sword. Add feycharger cheese to taste.

For some reason my mind screamed Tiefling on this ... guess that is kind of a no go for feycharger cheese.
 

mkill

Adventurer
While Swordmages and great and all, there is another option that might fulfill what you're looking for: Hybrid Fighter/Sorcerer.

This build pays the heavy feat tax typical for hybrids. When you're finally set, you're already 6th level or something.

Another issue is that you have all these nice area powers like your dragonbreath and the sorcerer blasts, but none of them provides a fighter mark. A dragonborn fighter / multiclass sorcerer doesn't have these issues. (Think about it: multiclass better than hybrid...)

A third issue is MAD (multi attribute dependency). A Cha 18 does nothing for a fighter, and without Dex, Wis or Con, you're locked out of most good weapon feats, and you you can't benefit from rider effects on any fighter powers. And we're not even talking about the wasted Dragonborn Con bonus to healing surge and the low Dragonbreath damage.

To sum it up: It's not a good build because the opportunity cost is too high. You're better off with a pure dragonborn fighter who picks up some blasting on the side, or a dragonborn sorcerer toughened up for melee with Sorcerous Blade Channeling, Toughness and AC booster feats.
 

Doctor Proctor

First Post
This build pays the heavy feat tax typical for hybrids. When you're finally set, you're already 6th level or something.

Another issue is that you have all these nice area powers like your dragonbreath and the sorcerer blasts, but none of them provides a fighter mark. A dragonborn fighter / multiclass sorcerer doesn't have these issues. (Think about it: multiclass better than hybrid...)

A third issue is MAD (multi attribute dependency). A Cha 18 does nothing for a fighter, and without Dex, Wis or Con, you're locked out of most good weapon feats, and you you can't benefit from rider effects on any fighter powers. And we're not even talking about the wasted Dragonborn Con bonus to healing surge and the low Dragonbreath damage.

To sum it up: It's not a good build because the opportunity cost is too high. You're better off with a pure dragonborn fighter who picks up some blasting on the side, or a dragonborn sorcerer toughened up for melee with Sorcerous Blade Channeling, Toughness and AC booster feats.

Well, to go with Fighter MC Sorcerer you need to spend 1 feat to get the multiclass, another feat (at no earlier than 4th level) to get a single Encounter power, another feat (at no earlier than 8th level) to get a single Utility power and another (at no earlier than 10th level) to get a single Daily power. You do not get an At-Will without Paragon Multiclassing, and the only way to get more than three powers in the second class (from the aforementioned feats) is to PMC or pick a Sorcerer Paragon Path.

So, unless you're MCing for a single Sorc Encounter power, I don't see how Hybrid Sorcerer is any more feat heavy than MC Sorcerer. You also get more options in some respects, since you get to have a Sorc At-Will. Also, you can have these powers at level 1 with no additional feats, whereas you have to wait until level 4 to get your first Sorc Encounter power. So saying that it's not ready until "level 6" is a bit specious, since the MC Sorc will only have a single encounter power at that level, whereas the Hybrid Sorc will have 1 At-Will, 1 Encounter, 1 Utility and 1 Daily.

As for the MAD issue, this is ridiculous. Unless you're going STR/CON, which sticks you with either Axes or Hammers by default and gives you crappy NAD's (note: My Dragonborn Fighter did this, I'm not saying it's not viable) you're not taking full advantage of the Dragonborn bonuses to Surge HP and Dragonbreath damage anyway. What about a Dragonborn wielding something like a Great Spear? It's a polearm and a spear, meaning you should bump DEX and WIS to get the feats and rider bonuses. Are you saying that this build is completely unviable because it doesn't have high CON?

And as for secondary stats, that's why I suggested pumping up DEX. The OP wanted to have a swordmaster character, which would mean Heavy Blades. He can get a 14 DEX at level 1 by dropping STR to 16 (which is doable since Heavy Blades like Longswords and Bastard Swords have a +3 proficiency bonus), which would allow him to pick up HBO in Paragon. The only important feat he'd be missing would the Heavy Blade Specialization feat, but he could just use a Jagged Weapon to increase his crit range if need be.

Part of the thing you're ignoring though is that where he loses effectiveness as a Fighter, he gains it as a Sorcerer. If you want to bump the damage on Dragonbreath there are two feats to do so, one which allows you to pick the attack/damage stat (so you can switch it to STR or CHA) and another that allows you to make it an Arcane Power for purposes of bonuses. The latter is waaaay superior, since now you can add in implement enhancement bonuses to attack and damage, as well as use your extra Sorcerer damage. You know, the one that the MC Sorcerers don't get except for once per encounter. ;) (Although, to be fair, you can PMC and pick up the extra feat to get it added for all Arcane powers, and get a bigger bonus)

Fact is, there is no BEST way to do these things. With each choice there are different pros and cons. If you just want a Fighter with a single Encounter blast attack, then yeah, MC Sorc and pick up that blast. If, however, you want a Fighter that is equally at home wielding dangerous weaponry as he is wielding dangerous elemental magics, then hybrid is the better choice because you get more access to powers and class features needed to use them effectively.

Also, note that in my original build suggestion, I only had two feats listed that were needed to get your character up to "effective" levels. One was the feat that let you use Heavy Blades as implements, and the other was the Hybrid Talent feat that grants access to the Fighter's Armor Proficiency list. You would basically be fine with just those two feats, you hardly need anything else to be honest. Other things like Versatile Expertise would've been taken anyway, regardless of whether you single class, multiclass or go hybrid. And things like Fighter Weapon Talent are by no means critical to the build, and could easily be skipped in favor of a better feat (like the aforementioned Versatile Expertise, which beats out FWT for this build if you're looking at an either-or scenario). This is hardly a feat intensive build....
 

Doctor Proctor

First Post
Oh, interesting side note: I might have been wrong about FWT.

Fighter Weapon Talent
Choose either one-handed or two-handed weapons.
When using a weapon of your chosen style, you gain a
+1 bonus to attack rolls.

The Hybrid Talent Option entry says that FWT functions exactly as written in the PHB, which is what I quoted above. Since it doesn't actually say that this weapon must be used in a Martial or Fighter attack, you might be able to apply FWT to both weapon and implement attacks as a Fighter/Sorcerer Hybrid. This opens up new options because you could use FWT and Versatile Expertise, then drop your STR and CHA to 16's (or not add to one of the stats at one or two points in your leveling) so that you could eventually increase DEX or CON to higher levels while allowing VE and FWT to make up the attack bonus loss. Interesting potential option, but you have to burn an extra feat...could be worth it though.
 

Turtlejay

First Post
I played in a campaign with a Fighter, Paladin, and Swordmage (I was the paladin). Honestly, the Fighter was the best defender, the Paladin was a pretty nice off-striker, and the swordmage. . .

He didn't do much, really. One thing I do remember is him pulling an enemy out of a window with lightning lure. But for the most part, we both bowed aside and let the fighter take the marks. This might be why I had such a low opinion of Swordmages, their mark is very important to their function.

My current party has an assault swordmage. He is very much a sword fighter, and the flavor of him being a swordmaster with a strong elemental connection is there. Our party has no front line to speak of, so a swordmage as our only defender actually works out pretty well. I think the Aegis you choose is very dependent on party makeup.

To sum up, Swordmages are:
- not for me
- great second defenders
- great mobile defenders
- full of arcane/elemental flavor
- fun for most people

Jay
 

weem

First Post
Good thread and great information.

I was kind of in the same boat with the OP regarding not getting the feel of the Swordmage, but this has helped a lot and has convinced me to switch from playing a Battlemind (I just started him, but we had talked about switching as his role looks like it will be better served as a future villain).

I'm excited to get start on one, so thanks again, hehe.
 

Oh, heck yeah. I have no delusions about being a striker but it is rather funny to see a wizard get surrounded then I teleport, swapping places with him and burst attacking the lot of them.

One of the most problematic status effects on a melee character is imobilization, yet I have enough teleports to often get me where I need to go even if I have an imobilization status effect on me.

I can also be up in the balcony with enemy artillery in a flash, yet still have my mark to teleport out if it gets too bad. With shielding, you don't have the "free" teleport back but can royally hose the brute back below in to an over-sized speed bump while messing up the artillery's day in a major way.

If you're not a striker and don't do credible damage, why do they honor your mark?

If anything it sounds like a a Terry Funk gimmick. If the brute is smart enough, he'll invoke your mark to get you away fromt he artillery.

To each his own, best of luck.
 

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