Swordmage's Decree & Hybrid Swordmages

[Nikosandros]

I was recently discussing this power with one of my players and I'm interested in reading other opinions.

This power is a close burst 3 that targets each enemy in the blast. The effect is the following:

The target is marked by your Swordmage Aegis power. Marking the target does not remove the mark on another target already affected by your Swordmage Aegis. If you mark only one target with this power, you do not expend the power but cannot use it again during this encounter.

The first issue regards the case in which there is more that one enemy in the blast, but the character only wishes to mark one. It seems to me that this isn't possible, since the description doesn't state something like "you may mark each target". Is this correct?

The second issue is about a hybrid swordmage employing this power. The Aegis of a hybrid is an encounter power, but it recharges whenever the marked enemy is killed or when the mark is superseded. By a literal reading of the rules it might seem that if the hybrid swordmage marks someone using this power and the enemy is later destroyed, the character later recovers his Aegis power and is thus able to keep two enemy marked during the whole encounter. A standard swordmage isn't able to do this, since his Aegis power is at-will, but can only be used on a target at the time.

I think that who wrote the power wasn't thinking about its interaction with hybrid characters. I also feel that it's wrong for a hybrid character to be able to employ a class specific feature better that a standard character of that class. Thoughts?

 

[elephantgrey]

Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): This class feature
functions as the swordmage class feature (FORGOTTEN REALMS Player's Guide, page 26), except that you can use the power that you choose only once per encounter. However, you regain the use of that power when its target drops to 0 hit paints or when its mark is superseded by another mark.

I read this as, you get the power back once this powers target dies/gets marked by someone else, not when it happens to a target with this powers effect.

Swordmage's Decree does mean that you can mark two enemies at once,m at one point at every encounter (given they target just one every time), but when the target of SD dies/ ets overwritten, the SM cannot mark a second target until they can use SD again, they do not gain there aegis ability back.

Thats how i read it anyway. /shrugs.

 

[Ferghis]

I read this as, you get the power back once [Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid)] target dies/gets marked by someone else, not when it happens to a target with this powers effect.

If we're going by RAW, the power seems to say that the Swordmage's Decree replicates the Aegis mark in all ways. Therefore, when any of the Aegis-marked targets die, the power would be recharged. It wouldn't depend on whether the effect was initially caused by the regular Aegis power or by Swordmage's Decree.

I think that who wrote the power wasn't thinking about its interaction with hybrid characters. I also feel that it's wrong for a hybrid character to be able to employ a class specific feature better that a standard character of that class. Thoughts?

I agree that the power is more useful to hybrid swordmages than it is to regular swordmages, for precisely the reason you describe.

The question is whether this is wrong. My answer would depend on the players, the party, the build, perhaps even the adventure and DM. To make a long story short, you can go either way, and it'll probably be fine. Swordmages (both hybrid and vanilla) can mark two enemies at a time (and hybrids recharge their Aegis power on any target's death) by taking a feat at level 11, so it certainly won't break the game. Do whatever entertains your table the most.

 

[Ferghis]

Swordmages (both hybrid and vanilla) can mark two enemies at a time (and hybrids recharge their Aegis power on any target's death) by taking a feat at level 11...

It occurred to me that this detail is an excellent litmus test, since it repeats the offending issue.

Benefit: When you use your Swordmage Aegis power, you can choose to also mark a second target within the burst.
If both targets attack your allies, you must choose which of the targets to respond to. (You still have only one immediate action per round.)

Since the hybrid aegis power recovers when a target dies, it would recover when the first target died. A common (and well-discussed) tactic for paragon-tier hybrid swordmages is to try mark at least one minion each time so that they can quickly recover the power and mark more enemies.

As is the case in OP' power, the benefit of this feat to a hybrid swordmage is significantly greater than to of a non-hybrid swordmage. This happens again at epic, when Total Aegis allows the swordmage to mark all enemies in the power's burst, allowing for even more abuse of this gambit. The limiting factor seems to be the swordmage's immediate action, which is used up when implementing the damage reduction of the blow. The attack roll penalty remains throughout, but no matter how many enemies the swordmage marks, s/he will be able to reduce the damage on only one of their attacks per round.

It remains to be shown whether the greater benefit is "wrong." After all, vanilla swordmages are known to be poor defenders, and compare poorly in that respect with, for example, fighters and wardens, at least in terms of control/defenderyness. And it is often the case that feats and powers are more valuable to a certain build than to another.

 

[Joshua Randall]

The first issue regards the case in which there is more that one enemy in the blast, but the character only wishes to mark one. It seems to me that this isn't possible, since the description doesn't state something like "you may mark each target". Is this correct?

I don't know what is correct or not, but I always allow the player to decide whether to apply the effects of his powers.

In this case I would allow the swordmage's player to decide whether to apply aegis to all, some, or none (!) of the targets in the burst/blast.

In my mind this is no different than a power than says something like "X damage and push the target up to 3 squares." The player can decide to push the target all (3 squares), some (1 or 2 squares), or none (0 squares).

 

[pemerton]

I don't know that I agree with the interpretations of the feat and the power as better for a Hybrid swordmage.

Use of a Hybrid swordmage's Aegis is regained "when its target drops to 0 hit points" (PHB p 152). If there are multiple targets of the Aegis (via the feats, or the Decree power), it is not clear when the use is regained. "Its target", as a noun phrase, presupposes a single target, and is synonymous therefore with neither "any one of its targets" nor "every one of its targets".

With the Decree power, my interpretation would be that Aegis becomes available again when the original Aegis target ("its target") drops to 0 hp. Decree has no effect on the availability of an ordinary swordmage's Aegis, and shouldn't do so for a Hybrid one.

With the feat, my interpretation would be that Aegis becomes available again when both targets drop to 0 hp, because both are "its target".

 

[keterys]

When a target dies, you get the aegis back. Whether you're double aegis-ing, total aegis-ing, using swordmage decree as an encounter power (1 target) or as a daily (all targets in the blast 3)

Hybrid swordmages work fairly well that way. That said, note that minor actions are a dreadfully vital commodity and swordmages need to be up and close to do them, so even so it's still a pretty real restriction.

 

[Blue]

I don't know what is correct or not, but I always allow the player to decide whether to apply the effects of his powers.

In this case I would allow the swordmage's player to decide whether to apply aegis to all, some, or none (!) of the targets in the burst/blast.

In my mind this is no different than a power than says something like "X damage and push the target up to 3 squares." The player can decide to push the target all (3 squares), some (1 or 2 squares), or none (0 squares).

I have to strongly disagree with this.

First, forced movement specifically says that it doesn't have to be the fully amount. From the compendium: "When a distance is specified, it is a maximum; the creature or effect producing the forced movement can move its target up to that number of squares (or none at all)." You can't jsut apply it to other things like targeting that don't have that advantage.

Second, there are a large number of feats and powers that are there because you can't change the size. First, if you could there would be no difference between an burst/blast that targets enemies only vs. all creatures, since you could just decide not to apply to allies. Along the same line there are a number of feats that reduce chance to hit allies in burst blast. Powers like Howling Tempest (Sorc 1) allow you to not target the origin square - that wouldn't be needed to be listed if you could already chose what squares to target.

Now, the PC can target an bust/blast with only a single valid target in, if one exists. But excluding valid targets would be a house rule, not RAW/RAI.

 

[pemerton]

When a target dies, you get the aegis back.

The phrase used in the hybrid rules is "its target", not "a target of the Aegis". As I said above, these are not synonyms. "Its target" introduces a presupposition that there is only a single target. When that presupposition fails to hold (as in the cases being discussed in this thread), we then have to interpret the rules in a non-literal fashion.

Interestingly, the same linguistic phenomenon (in the context of the phrase "until A or B", which generates a presupposition that one of either A or B will occur in due course) was very recently discussed by Justice Gummow of the Australian High Court in a more high stakes context, namely, whether the Australian Migration Act permits the indefinite detention of refugees who have been refused a visa on security grounds, but who cannot be deported (because the only country that will take them is the country against which they have a valid protection claim): Plaintiff M47-2012 v Director General of Security.

In the context of the Migration Act, Justice Gummow applied the long-standing common law principle that detention is unlawful unless clearly authorised by statute or judicial order, and hence held that - once the presupposition fails - the Migration Act should not be interpreted as permitting detention.

In the context of D&D, the stakes obviously aren't as high, and nor is there any long-standing principle to help guide our interpretation. When I suggested my interpretations upthread, the principle I had in mind was to make a Hybrid's ability equivalent to, or strictly a subset of, the corresponding normal ability. A normal swordmage can't use the Aegis-enhancing feat to get 3 targets marked at once, and so I don't think a hybrid should be able to (which seems to be the implication of the ruling that use of Aegis is regained when one target dies).

 

[keterys]

A normal swordmage can't use the Aegis-enhancing feat to get 3 targets marked at once, and so I don't think a hybrid should be able to (which seems to be the implication of the ruling that use of Aegis is regained when one target dies).

They can't - just like a normal swordmage, if they use aegis of X again, it removes it from previous targets marked by that power.

"The target remains marked until you use this power against another target."

At the end of the day, is there any particular reason to encourage the hybrid swordmage _not_ to take double/total aegis?