Swordmage's Decree & Hybrid Swordmages

[pemerton]

They can't - just like a normal swordmage, if they use aegis of X again, it removes it from previous targets marked by that power.

"The target remains marked until you use this power against another target."

At the end of the day, is there any particular reason to encourage the hybrid swordmage _not_ to take double/total aegis?

Response to last sentence: No.

Response to first sentence - "Ah, makes sense".

I think I got confused by the post upthread when Ferghis said "the benefit of this feat to a hybrid swordmage is significantly greater than to of a non-hybrid swordmage", and that "A common (and well-discussed) tactic for paragon-tier hybrid swordmages is to try mark at least one minion each time so that they can quickly recover the power and mark more enemies."

I gather the "mark more enemies" simply means "keep two enemies marked" - in which case, the use of minion-marking seems unnecessary - if you mark two non-minions you'll still have two enemies marked.

And I also then don't see the feat's benefit to the Hybrid being signficantly greater. I guess you can make your Hybrid Aegis more flexible than it otherwise would be, by always trying to include a minion and hence having a "handy Aegis recharge" option. But a non-Hybrid already has that option, in virtue of Aegis being at will for them, and can keep two real targets marked at all times. Whereas a Hybrid who goes for two real targets loses the minion-based flexibility.

Or am I still missing something?

 

[Joshua Randall]

First, forced movement specifically says that it doesn't have to be the fully amount. [...] You can't jsut apply it to other things like targeting that don't have that advantage.

I did not say I allowed the PCs to target things selectively. I said I allowed them to apply the non-damaging effects of their powers selectively.

Arguably a house rule but one I am happy to allow.

 

[Ferghis]

The first issue regards the case in which there is more that one enemy in the blast, but the character only wishes to mark one. It seems to me that this isn't possible, since the description doesn't state something like "you may mark each target". Is this correct?

I don't know what is correct or not, but I always allow the player to decide whether to apply the effects of his powers.

the PC can target an bust/blast with only a single valid target in, if one exists. But excluding valid targets would be a house rule, not RAW/RAI.

The issue arises because the Warden's mark and the Fighter's mark are both optional. But that fact is rooted in the language of their marking powers, while the language in Swordmage's Decree seems to say that all targets are marked with the Aegis, end of story.

The second issue is about a hybrid swordmage employing this power. The Aegis of a hybrid is an encounter power, but it recharges whenever the marked enemy is killed or when the mark is superseded. By a literal reading of the rules it might seem that if the hybrid swordmage marks someone using this power and the enemy is later destroyed, the character later recovers his Aegis power and is thus able to keep two enemy marked during the whole encounter. A standard swordmage isn't able to do this, since his Aegis power is at-will, but can only be used on a target at the time.

They can't - just like a normal swordmage, if they use aegis of X again, it removes it from previous targets marked by that power.

"The target remains marked until you use this power against another target."

At the end of the day, is there any particular reason to encourage the hybrid swordmage _not_ to take double/total aegis?

Response to last sentence: No.

Response to first sentence - "Ah, makes sense".

I think I got confused by the post upthread when Ferghis said "the benefit of this feat to a hybrid swordmage is significantly greater than to of a non-hybrid swordmage", and that "A common (and well-discussed) tactic for paragon-tier hybrid swordmages is to try mark at least one minion each time so that they can quickly recover the power and mark more enemies."

I gather the "mark more enemies" simply means "keep two enemies marked" - in which case, the use of minion-marking seems unnecessary - if you mark two non-minions you'll still have two enemies marked.

And I also then don't see the feat's benefit to the Hybrid being signficantly greater. I guess you can make your Hybrid Aegis more flexible than it otherwise would be, by always trying to include a minion and hence having a "handy Aegis recharge" option. But a non-Hybrid already has that option, in virtue of Aegis being at will for them, and can keep two real targets marked at all times. Whereas a Hybrid who goes for two real targets loses the minion-based flexibility.

Or am I still missing something?

I think you have it right, and I was missing something. Somehow, in my mind, the hybrid version had modified the phrase quoted by keterys, but, upon stricter review, this does not appear to be the case. Pemerton and Keterys are correct: old aegis marks would fade as soon as the regular power was re-used. Swordmage's Decree, in its re-usable form, would allow a single additional marked enemy during the encounter, and this additional mark cannot be spread to additional enemies, as far as I can tell.

This makes this defender a very tactically interesting one, one that must consider who to mark, and how to get in position to mark them, and how to juggle minor actions in order to be able to do so.

...in a more high stakes context...

Higher stakes than nerds cavillously debating the finer points of hybrid aegis marking? I think you are mistaken: this is the internet.

 

[Nikosandros]

They can't - just like a normal swordmage, if they use aegis of X again, it removes it from previous targets marked by that power.

"The target remains marked until you use this power against another target."

Good point and one that settles the debate. The hybrid aegis doesn't change that part.

 

[Nikosandros]

The issue arises because the Warden's mark and the Fighter's mark are both optional. But that fact is rooted in the language of their marking powers, while the language in Swordmage's Decree seems to say that all targets are marked with the Aegis, end of story.

Yes,the RAW appears to be clear-cut. However, it is still interesting (at least IMO) to debate whether this power should be amended in lit of the fact that fighters and wardens can choose not to apply their marks. Do you think that this "restriction" on SM Decree is purposeful, in order to make it less easy to recover the power?

 

[Ferghis]

Do you think that this "restriction" on SM Decree is purposeful, in order to make it less easy to recover the power?

It may well be, even though I often question how carefully these kinds of purposes are studied. On one hand, swordmages have a renewable marking power baked in to the class, so it's not, strictly speaking, necessary to allow it extra marks. On the other hand, they compete with battleminds for first place on the "worst defender" list.

Honestly, a lot depends on the real mobility of the character. The main "trick" of swordmages is to mark one enemy (or more), and then move to the other side of the battlefield to engage other enemies, forcing the marked enemies to chase the swordmage down (or hit the swordmage's allies with a pillow), and having the swordmage engage the unmarked enemies. This is how swordmages defender it up: by marking, and then assisting the party with focus fire by attacking the unmarked things.

The problem is that to implement this trick, the swordmage must move to within 2 squares of the first set of enemies, use a minor to mark them, and then either move again (finishing the round without attacking) or charge, usually with a less-than-stellar basic attack. This is already of disputable effectiveness in theory, and it becomes difficult to implement in practice. OAs, everyone's placement on the battlefield, a shortage of immediate actions, poor initiative, and terrain can hamper this tactic, reducing a defender that is relatively ineffective (in the small spectrum of effectiveness of 4e; 4e classes are all pretty balanced) to a somewhat more ineffective one.

My guess is that, if the DM violates marks with any frequency, the most consistent bottleneck will be the character's immediate actions. In that case, the more frequent impact of being marked will be the -2 penalty to hit, which is not a dramatic deal. In that case, being able to mark more enemies more frequently, by allowing permissive instead of mandatory marking in the rare cases that Swordmage's Decree cannot be placed to mark only one enemy and is still available (the daily power may well be spent to make full use of it), will probably be a very minor benefit, and may well be worth granting.

 

[keterys]

On the other hand, they compete with battleminds for first place on the "worst defender" list.

Errm... swordmages are competing for best, to be honest. Largely because of powers like Dimensional Vortex and Transposing Lunge, and their ability to (usually) get the highest defender defenses in the game.

Ignoring Essentials for a moment:
Fighter - Paladin - Swordmage
Battlemind - Warden

If we add in the Cavalier and Knight... I'm guessing it'd be Knight in tier 2, Cavalier in tier 3 as the undisputed worst.

 

[Ferghis]

Errm... swordmages are competing for best, to be honest. Largely because of powers like Dimensional Vortex and Transposing Lunge, and their ability to (usually) get the highest defender defenses in the game.

I agree that their defenses are very high, and the powers you name are indeed excellent, but no match for the multimarking stickyness of Come and Get It or even Grasping Winds. Defendering is mostly about keeping enemies in a position to only attack the defender. Swordmages aren't that great at that in their basic form. They are fantastic hybrids, particularly with artificers and warlocks. And their Sigil Carver paragon path is stellar. But they aren't sticky, and their trick (described in my prior post in this thread) is not so easy to pull off. At least, that's my opinion. I've already been wrong once in this thread.

Again, this is in the rather small gamut of 4e classes, which are very balanced, overall.

 

[keterys]

Hmm, we may just be thinking of different level ranges, to be honest. I play a lot more paragon and epic than heroic these days.

 

[Ferghis]

I keep wishing I did. One of my paragon games is getting up there.