"Swords are no more use here"

[Psion]

Has anyone ever noticed that demons are sort of... backwards from inspirational material. In that SR makes spells tend to be much less the solution, but a well equipped high level warrior can either plough through DR or possibly ignore it entirely if they are properly equipped. By the 3.5 rules, it might be Aragorn telling Gandalf "Spells are no more use here."

Well, I'm not about declaring D&D should be changed and all that. But more wondering, if a game has been lending a bit too much favor in combat to the combat powerhouses, what sort of (combat or otherwise threatening) encounters can switch that up a bit to give the spellcasters some spotlight time.

Swarms occur to me immediately, but I was wondering what other types of creatures I may be overlooking, or how I might make a new sort of outsider more of the sort that wizards would be the best to deal with.

 

[Giddeon]

Well, I'm not about declaring D&D should be changed and all that. But more wondering, if a game has been lending a bit too much favor in combat to the combat powerhouses, what sort of (combat or otherwise threatening) encounters can switch that up a bit to give the spellcasters some spotlight time.

Ditto.

I play a 3'3" gnome wizard. It is funny when we get into a skirmish that I end up taking the lead. My hp are better than the rogue and close to the ranger. Lucky dice rolls and an 18 Con has helped me tremendously. All except one encounter we have faced I have been the spearhead of the party.
The one encounter I speak of, the SR of the creature kicked my rump. Everything I threw at it was either wasted due to the SR or the damage dealt was minor. Being a small character doesn't lend me any leverage in my weapon damage either.:\

 

[delericho]

In that SR makes spells tend to be much less the solution, but a well equipped high level warrior can either plough through DR or possibly ignore it entirely if they are properly equipped.

Maybe D&D should be changed, so that SR isn't just a blanket defence against all spells equally (well, those that allow it at all, of course), but rather be confined to specific types of spells. Thus, undead might have SR 20/Necromancy, or whatever.

 

[Sammael]

Has anyone ever noticed that demons are sort of... backwards from inspirational material. In that SR makes spells tend to be much less the solution, but a well equipped high level warrior can either plough through DR or possibly ignore it entirely if they are properly equipped. By the 3.5 rules, it might be Aragorn telling Gandalf "Spells are no more use here."

Not really, no. Let's look at some demons:

Babau: CR 6, SR 14, AC 19, DR 10/cold iron or good
A 6th level wizard needs an 8 or better to pierce the SR. With Spell Penetration, he needs a 6 or better. That's a 75% chance.

A 6th level fighter probably has about +12 to hit with his first attack (+6 bab, +4 Str, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement); he needs a 7 or better to hit. That's comparable to the wizard.

Glabrezu: CR 13, SR 21, AC 27, DR 10/ good
A 13th level wizard needs an 8 or better to pierce the SR. With Greater Spell Penentration, he only needs a 4. That's an 85% chance.

A 13th level fighter probably has about +24 to hit with his first attack (+13 bab, +6 Str, +2 greater focus, +3 enhancement); he needs a 3 or better to hit. That's a 90% chance. Still about the same.

Balor: CR 20, SR 28, AC 35, DR 15/cold iron and good
A 20th level wizard needs an 8 or better to pierce the SR (do we see a pattern here?). With Greater Spell Penetration and robe of the archmagi, he only needs a 2. That's a 95% chance.

A 20th level fighter probably has about +35 to hit (+20 bab, +8 Str, +2 greater focus, +5 enhancement); he needs a 2 to hit, because a 1 is a critical miss. That's a 95% chance.

The difference here is that, even if the fighter had +50 to hit, he'd still miss 5% of the time, whereas the wizard only needs to increase his caster level by 1 more, and he has no chance of failure with regard to SR.

 

[Psion]

Maybe D&D should be changed, so that SR isn't just a blanket defence against all spells equally (well, those that allow it at all, of course), but rather be confined to specific types of spells. Thus, undead might have SR 20/Necromancy, or whatever.

Now there's a thought. Would also be a method to force the blast happy mages to consider a different solution.

 

[Psion]

The difference here is that, even if the fighter had +50 to hit, he'd still miss 5% of the time, whereas the wizard only needs to increase his caster level by 1 more, and he has no chance of failure with regard to SR.

I think your analysis is missing something.

Let me put it this way: have you ever seen a fighter's player get pissed that he missed?

Okay, how about a mage's player.

In case I'm not making my implication clear, I have never seen the former, but have seen plenty of the latter. A fighter can hack round after round, multiple times a round, so a miss is of little consequence. But a wizard casting his one or two high level spells, having them miss the mark is a big deal.

Don't get me wrong -- SR (or something very close to it) is necessary to maintain the challenge of high level games, I think. Many wizard spells, if they go off, are combat enders. But I think you need to consider more than just the chances of a single effect working; you also need to consider how dispensible they are.

 

[Barak]

While Sammael's post was interesting, it did fail to take under consideration two things. The spellcaster has a finite number of times he'll be able to "try" to hit. Every miss becomes more important. Sure, high level casters have lots of spells, but, really, low-level spells are not the same as the high level ones. On the other hand, the fighter can just swing all day long (or until he runs out of HPs... But that is true of the spellcaster as well).

Also, itterative attacks muddle the math a little bit. sure, secondary attacks hit less often, but that's not the same as never.

Edit: And Psion, as a higher-level poster, took Improved Init, and beat my initiative roll.

 

[Klaus]

I find SR to be extremely frustrating (in a bad way) to my spellcasting-character players. As Psion mentioned, a fighter that misses an attack can simply attack the next round. A wizard that casts his most powerful, combat-ending, big bang spell and fizzles due to SR is miffed for the rest of the session. The player starts thinking "Why bother, if my spotlight moment can be dimmed so easily?".

Maybe SR, if successful, should entail the same result of a successful save (or block the spell completely in the case of no-save spells). I dunno.

 

[Psion]

Okay, guys. Any chance we could move about the debate/angst over the impact of SR and come up with some suggestions for encounters that let mages shine other than swarms?

 

[Bihor]

To keep this interesting I give less magic weapon, so th DR is more effective.