"Swords are no more use here"

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I was about to say the same thing. Allow some kinds of spells to bypass the SR - that's such an obvious and cool bit of flavor, I wonder why I've never heard anyone suggest it before!

The way I'd do it in order to deal with this particular campaign situation is set up a series of spells that particularly target demons so as to bypass the SR.

Said spells would be less 'effective' than normal spells of their level, but that would fit the trope since Gandalf sends everyone back and then proceeds to fight the demon in such a manner that it certainly seems he has no save or die spells at his disposal. Might simply be buffs, de-buffs, and movement limitors.

Plus it would fit the trope of the specialized anti-demon knowledge that it is implied LotR wizards have over other arcane character types. I can't really see the witch-king being able to pull that off for instance.

The movement limitation stuff would also fit with the tropes of caged or imprisoned demons.

 

[S'mon]

Has anyone ever noticed that demons are sort of... backwards from inspirational material. In that SR makes spells tend to be much less the solution, but a well equipped high level warrior can either plough through DR or possibly ignore it entirely if they are properly equipped. By the 3.5 rules, it might be Aragorn telling Gandalf "Spells are no more use here."

Definitely not a Conan fan, eh?

IN 3e the big melee brute monsters are hell on fighters but very easy for Wizards to kill, I'd say that was the real reverse from any source material I know of.

 

[Psion]

Definitely not a Conan fan, eh?

Beleive me, the similarity between Conan and the role of the big fighter in my games had occurred to me.

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

And my party is into the buff principle... but they lack a cleric.

I've observed that buffs can cause what you're observing. If the main spellcasters spend slots buffing up the party then they have used resources to increase the power of the fighters. Then the fighter types will be above EL while the casters tend to be slightly below. It's then a much bigger deal when a spell or two bounce off the opponent's SR.

NCSUCodeMonkey

 

[Silveras]

Actually, I kind of like the SR system much as it is. I think it promotes approaches other than "how many direct damage spells can I manage to prepare today ?". There is a wealth of good play opportunity to be had in using the battlefield to your advantage, in more ways than "is there cover ?".

SR makes the creature resistant to *direct* effects. Wizards and Sorcerers shine when they learn to use indirect effects appropriately. When facing heavy-SR foes, spells like transmute rock to mud, especially when followed by transmute mud to rock (yes, even though neither allows SR anyway).

There are also, as mentioned, spells that lower or even negate SR. Of course, you have to know beforehand that you are going to need such spells. That, I think, leads to another area where mages can shine, especially Wizards/Wu Jen: versatility. Leaving some slots "open" to load up with those "occasional use" spells can be very helpful. Of course, successful and effective scouting makes that possible *before* the fight is joined. This does not work so well for the Sorcerers, with their free-choice casting and limited list, but partnering with a Wizard to provide the versatility spells while the Sorcerer provides the frequent castings of what s/he knows is a good use of available resources.

And, of course, having scrolls or wands of non-SR spells around when you need them is another way that mages can shine.

 

[Barak]

Ahh. Sorry, missed you were looking for specific examples of creatures to use instead of changes to the way things work.

Problem with that is, we don't really know your group, and suggestions would vary greatly. Sure, flying creatures -could- work, but if the fighter's a master archer, not so much. Hordes of creatures (not a swarm, but almost) could make the wizard shine.. But if there's a fighter with great cleave.. A rust monster or two can make some fighters run away, but a lightly armored, Great Club swinging barbarian won't be impressed..

There's many options, but it really depends on what your -players- can do.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've always wondered why so many supernatural beings are even corporeal.

Intangibility and posession of mortals was a fairly common attribute among extraplanar horrors of legend and fiction (from the Bible to The Exorcist), and it renders weapons-dependant demonslayers virtually helpless...unless they don't mind "breaking a few eggs to make an omlette."

Critters with area attacks (of whatever origin) are also a special problem: they don't pay much attention to the high AC those warriors have. The warriors can act like meat shields to keep the critters from advancing on the spellcasters who can return fire, but if they mass to assault the critters, they'll get hurt- fast!

And while its not neccessarily on point, I thought the idea of varying levels of spell resistance depending on type was pretty good. Why shouldn't flame oriented demons be virtually defenseless against cold spells?

 

[pogre]

Someone suggested ranged opponents and this is where my casters shine. A flying opponent with real ranged damagining potential is vey frustrating to my fighter types.

 

[silvereyes]

I was thinking that if you really want to choke the fighters all you need is to arrange the combats so that the monsters keep fleeing.

Roll init, rogue shoots monsters,monsters shoot at fighters, mage casts spell, fighters move for single attack, rogue shoots/backstabs, monsters run. Fighters scream that monsters are chickens, and start complaining about being able to shine.

This means that you could use any creature with an init higher than your fighters, with ranged attacks, and a means of escape. This includes just having a corridor out, and more movement than the fighters. (Use that armor against them)

Terrain that provides a 1/2 movement rate will also allow everyone else to shine, since with the movement penalties the slower fighters are going to have a rough time getting to the fight.

 

[Victim]

I've observed that buffs can cause what you're observing. If the main spellcasters spend slots buffing up the party then they have used resources to increase the power of the fighters. Then the fighter types will be above EL while the casters tend to be slightly below. It's then a much bigger deal when a spell or two bounce off the opponent's SR.

NCSUCodeMonkey

It's more like the other way around. People don't like wasting spells against SR (or successful saves), so they use buffs because those work despite the resistances of the enemy.

The fighter version of the save or die spell is called the full attack. A powerful fighter can sometimes nearly kill himself in a lucky round of attacks and can often cream a weak caster in a single flurry.