"Swords are no more use here"

[Giddeon]

I am not against removing SR. However, in that case, many high-level save-or-die spells need to be nerfed or removed. And by save-or-die, I also mean spells that effectively remove the creature from combat.

To help the fighters equal the power of a spellcaster with the save-or-die spells, we use a house rule and a nifty table for the critical hits. There is an option for instant kill, albeit more rare than the spells with the same effect.

 

[Psion]

Many times.

And I thought my players were whiners.

Guys, the house rules forum is down the hall. Again, any chance that we could discuss campaign oriented suggestions, perhaps limiting new rules suggestions to new creature capability suggestions?

To your point, a counterpoint. Even at high levels, a fighter does not have a single attack that can end the combat in one round, if successful. A wizard, on the other hand, gains one such spell at 7th (!) class level: phantasmal killer. Who needs to be equalized here?

I'm not sure what you point is. If you don't find that wizards have trouble contributing in your game, then by all means, the intent of this thread is not serving you. I, on the other hand, find my damage machine fighters hog the spotlight and would like to hear some campaign oritented suggestions.

 

[Psion]

To help the fighters equal the power of a spellcaster with the save-or-die spells, we use a house rule and a nifty table for the critical hits. There is an option for instant kill, albeit more rare than the spells with the same effect.

My Players' fighters not being able to kill things is not the problem. I almost have to make sure there are creatures in the game with considerable DR just to ensure the spellcasters get their licks in.

 

[Whimsical]

Standing next to an enemy fighter when it comes to his turn tends to be a die-no-save situation.

 

[Thanee]

I'm not entirely sure what you are looking for specifically, but monsters with a high AC (really high AC, as in first attacks of buffed-up warriors need a high roll to hit, anything beyond that needs a natural 20) tend to be pretty frustrating for warrior-types, while AC does not really hinder spellcasters.

We had something like this during the earlier levels of our current campaign, when we encountered two will-o'-the-wisps.

Also shadow dragons with their nasty capability to reduce the combat effectiveness of everyone pretty quickly thanks to their energy draining breath weapon, coupled with spellcasting, high AC and flight, tend to let warrior-types look pretty bad on the field of battle.

Then monsters with HUGE grapple checks and multiple arms/tentacles, that can basically grapple the whole group with the -20 penalty for not being considered grappling themselves, are - at higher levels - worse for warriors than for wizards, who can simply dimdoor out of the grapple and seek a safe spot to attack the creature from there. The warriors are left with inferior weapon attacks, which bounce off the creature's DR.

Then, of course, there are invisible, ethereal, etc creatures which spellcasters have better means to fight against.

And not to forget out-of-combat situations, where spells can often resolve situations, which otherwise would be huge obstacles.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sammael]

My Players' fighters not being able to kill things is not the problem. I almost have to make sure there are creatures in the game with considerable DR just to ensure the spellcasters get their licks in.

To reduce the effectiveness of your fighters, introduce them to: flying creatures (vs. melee fighters), high-AC creatures, creatures with the swallow whole ability, creatures with the Awesome Blow and Large and in Charge feats, creatures that utilize trip, disarm, and sunder, creatures that utilize high-level echantment spells, or creatures with displacement or etherealness, fights that utilize risky terrain (like fights with dexterous creatures on narrow bridges or ledges).

I've never had problems with fighters in my campaigns. They may steel the spotlight every once in a while, but, most of the time, they are playing second fiddle to the spellcasters. And that's a problem in and by itself as well.

 

[Andre]

Okay, guys. Any chance we could move about the debate/angst over the impact of SR and come up with some suggestions for encounters that let mages shine other than swarms?

Try a few oozes.

Gray ooze and black pudding can destroy a weapon that hits it.

Black pudding and ochre Jelly are immune to slashing and piercing damage.

Personally, I'd be tempted to create a variation of the gel cube also. The idea that a sword can kill a lump of acidic gel makes little sense to me. Creating a modifed version with the same immunities as the ochre jelly and black pudding would be an interesting surprise for the players.

 

[Thanee]

Or the dreaded Remorhaz.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Andre]

Other ideas:

Incorporeal undead (50% miss chance even with a magic weapon). Some also possess really nasty abilities, such as strength drain and level drain.

Ethereal creatures that pop in, make a quick attack on a single party member, pop out. This will put a premium on ranged attacks, whether spells or weapons. Xorns can do something similar with their earth glide ability.

Fire giants/fire elementals/salamanders surrounded by walls of fire.


Hypermitotic rust monsters!

 

[fusangite]

I think a key part of the issue you are addressing comes from how magic works in D&D. One of the reasons Scorching Ray was such an important addition to the game in 3.5 was stemming the trend towards evocations and other damage-dealing spells being best-suited for killing large numbers of weak creatures while fighting men were best-suited to attacking tough creatures. Essentially, spell casting has evolved into artillery support/cover for the real combattants. I really see this as associated with the increasing view of D&D magic as essentially technology.

As for things to do in the rules, within Psion's parameters, perhaps along the lines of the metamagic rods, we could consider the creation of magic items that are imbued with enhanced spell penetration abilities.