Synthetist is Shameful.

[Fooly_Cooly]

Yeah. I hate seeing it happen too. Especially when your trying to introduce someone new to d&d. They do their best to put a char together but against the other players in the group who have 6+ years under their belt that char will never get the spotlight.

 

[gamerprinter]

Yeah. I hate seeing it happen too. Especially when your trying to introduce someone new to d&d. They do their best to put a char together but against the other players in the group who have 6+ years under their belt that char will never get the spotlight.

I don't blame this on experienced players, as basically half our group has been playing since late 1970's, and the only optimizer in our group has only been playing for 5 years. We the more experienced members of the group, don't try to be suboptimal, but none of us are 'optimizers' to death, only the new guy is.

 

[Fooly_Cooly]

Well I guess its just all the experienced players in my group are optimizers of doom. I think that's half the fun for them is making the char a deadly as possible. The party im in right now has this problem. Its an optimized cold sorcerer,a close to optimized armiger(Myself),A witch(The new player),And a gunslinger/alchemist(Someone who has only been in 1 campaign for a few games). When the campaign was started it was agreed it was supposed to be an extreme character test. But it seems us more experienced players forgot to help the new girl optimize her witch and the gunslinger refused any assitance so now he is lagging behind as well. The DM now said he has to tone down the entire campaign as he made it for optimized chars .

 

[tylermalan]

My podcast co-host, @Azmyth is of the view that Barbarians are overpowered at any level.

Ok, so the barbarian is OP, the melee alchemist is OP, the melee summoner is OP, the eldritch knight, fighter, and paladin can all handle the OP summoner...

...am I missing something here? None of this makes sense. xP

 

[Steel_Wind]

Ok, so the barbarian is OP, the melee alchemist is OP, the melee summoner is OP, the eldritch knight, fighter, and paladin can all handle the OP summoner...

...am I missing something here? None of this makes sense. xP

Some archetypes lead you straight to the optimized feed trough. Most other classes make you work to find that level of brokenness.

The Synthesist leads you to the right trough to feed out of. The Musket Master archetype for the Gunslinger does the same and spikes in brokenness at level 5-6, but calms significantly down thereafter and soon becomes underpowered. (Admittedly, at level 5-6, it's a total spotlight hog, I'll give it that).

All of them, as optimized builds, play above their level in terms of damage output. Some of them -- significantly so.

Point is, you need to be comparing apples to apples in order to get a feel for some of these archetypes and builds.

When the characters are thrown in with others which are non-optomized, it makes them look especially powerful. Character classes which punch above their weight, especially at low level, tend to get most of the hate as people become more familiar with them because they are exposed to them more often.

All of this, especially those which hit hard at lower level, look worse in Pathfinder Society play where the GM is not permitted to increase the power level of the scenario to compensate. Hence, all the hate in PFS for optimized Barbarians which can "break" level 1-2 mods pretty easily.

 

[Fooly_Cooly]

Yeah. I tried to run crimson thrones once. Had 2 extra party members. It was really difficult to adjust a pre made game for the extra characters. Thats why we dont do pre made games .

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

My podcast co-host, @Azmyth is of the view that Barbarians are overpowered at any level. My current Barbarian in our Legacy of Fire campaign has persuaded him of this. Kyrano is a variant based off of Big Grimm, our barbarian Invulnerable Rager we did on the podcast's Character Concept Workshop. It does not help that the damage dealing power of the Barbarian class at low level tends to break most PFS Scenarios, either. Azmyth hates them.

I have also demonstrated repeatedly with this and another fighter character of mine that a simple 1st level CL1 potion of Enlarge Person is, when looking at the bang for the buck, easily the most cost effective magic item in the game. Personally, I think the rules need revising to stop this from being made into a potion which takes instant effect. It's too good in potion form.

The below sheet shows him as he normally is in combat, Raging, enlarged, hasted and buffed, this Gnoll Barbarian shows why the 9th level Synthesist is not all that and a bag of chips. Next feat brings Improved Finishing Cleave to the table, too. This guy regularly does 100+ hit points a round. If he crits, it's north of 170/rnd.

His AC makes him easy to hit, but with DR4 and blur (typical buff), he can take it. Moreover, he dishes out far more than most can throw at him.

Broken? Quite possibly.
___________________________
K'YRANO 'GHU CR 8
Male Gnoll Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 9
CN Large Humanoid (Gnoll)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +18
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 15. . (+7 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 132 (9d12+54)
Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +11
DR 4/—, 8/lethal; Resist fire 2, Extreme Endurance (Fire)
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 70 ft.
Melee Goreshred (Great Axe)+21/+21/+16 (3d6+24/20/x3 Human Bane Great Axe)
. . Dagger +19/+19/+14 (1d6+15/19-20/x2) and
. . Entropan +20/+20/+15 (3d6+23/20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+19/+14 (1d4+15/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +17/+17/+12 (1d8+6/20/x3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 17/27, Dex 16/14, Con 18/22, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +9; CMB +18; CMD 29
Feats All Gnolls Must Die, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Great Cleave, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack -3/+6, Vital Strike
Traits Finding Haleen: Barbarian, Killer
Skills Acrobatics +15, Appraise +1, Bluff +2, Climb +14, Diplomacy +2, Disguise +2, Escape Artist +3, Fly +1, Handle Animal +4, Heal +3, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Linguistics +2, Perception +18, Ride +8, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +7, Survival +11, Swim +14
Languages Common, Gnoll
SQ Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Intimidating Glare (Ex), Rage (24 rounds/day) (Ex), Raging Leaper +9 (Ex), Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex), Ring of Jumping, Terrifying Howl (DC 22) (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Mithral Chain Shirt, Arrows (20), Dagger, Entropan, Goreshred, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +5); Other Gear Adventurer's Sash (6 @ 0 lbs), Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Backpack (empty), Boots of Striding and Springing, Potion of Cure Light Wounds (3), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (3), Potion of Enlarge Person (4), Pouch, belt (3 @ 0 lbs), Ring of Jumping, Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
All Gnolls Must Die You get a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws and +2 to hit and damage gnolls
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
Damage Reduction (4/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (8/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Resistance, Fire (2) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Extreme Endurance: Fire (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability replace
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Intimidating Glare (Ex) While raging, use Intimidate to shake your opponents.
Killer Add weapon's critical modifier to its critical bonus damage.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (24 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Leaper +9 (Ex) Acrobatics: Jump +9
Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Ring of Jumping This ring continually allows the wearer to leap about, providing a +5 competence bonus on all his Jump checks.
Terrifying Howl (DC 22) (Ex) While raging, howl to panic shaken foes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
--------------------
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at Lone Wolf Development
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

This is really great guys, I didn't expect so much learning from my first post on this wonderful board. Thank ya. Now then, re: the barb uptop, he is very cool and in my books is a great character build as he is well balanced and can handle multiple combat types. He would suffer in a white society as a scapegoat but otherwise yeah, very expertly done.

I did compare him with my basic combat index (previous) and his score is 421 (assuming his hp goes up to 159). This is still above my sons sammy at 358 (with his non-crit max damage of 70 with challenge). But the synthetist build still bests you with a mighty broken 539.

I will agree that everything is relative and it is up to the GM to maintain a healthy balance using all tools available equally ie. environments, demographics, economy and martial prowess. And uh, yeah, treasure.

Cheers,

 

[concerro]

This is Wraithstrike. Your formula leaves quiet a few things unaccounted for. The number of attacks section makes a TWF based class look a lot better than they really are.

The AC of the synthesis is comparable with a fighter or paladin that wants to get high AC.

The feats need to be separated from the non-feats. The class is easier to check that way.

Stream of the Sky is correct. A regular summoner is better due to action economy. You might not beleive in the term, but it has a very real affect on the game, and it is a good reason why single boss monsters don't do as well as many lesser monsters, but that is another story for another day.

PS:To anyone wondering why I am bringing this thread back to life the OP asked me to post here.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

My formula is quick and dirty admitted, but it is effectively efficient in comparative demonstration.

Re: My biggest gripe with the proposed advantage of the action economy of the summoner vs. synthesist is that even though there is double the actions of the summoner combo, there is also a significantly weaker target. One should consider if the vulnerability of the main character on the field is grounds to disqualify any advantage to proposed action economy. If you ask me I'd rather stay in my chopper than get outside in a fight. That's just me, but yeah, thanks for the word.

Cheers,

 

[concerro]

My formula is quick and dirty admitted, but it is effectively efficient in comparative demonstration.

Re: My biggest gripe with the proposed advantage of the action economy of the summoner vs. synthesist is that even though there is double the actions of the summoner combo, there is also a significantly weaker target. One should consider if the vulnerability of the main character on the field is grounds to disqualify any advantage to proposed action economy. If you ask me I'd rather stay in my chopper than get outside in a fight. That's just me, but yeah, thanks for the word.

Cheers,

The summoner like most casters has ways to keep enemies away. Dimension door is one, and since it is a medium BAB class it can be made to put out damage as well.
So you have the eidolon bringing the pain, and the summoner doing it also, if it is not buffing the party.
Yeah the summoner is an easier target, but that does not make him an easy target. Of course how difficult will depend upon how good the player is.