T&B: Persistent Spell

[Barcode]

The Persistent Spell feat states that only spells of fixed or personal range can be made persistent. That seems to specifically exclude touch spells cast on one's self. I don't think this is ambiguous, but I'm curious as to the rationale. I don't really see why Persistent Spell shouldn't just be an extension of Extend Spell, and therefore apply to things like the buff spells.

Anyone have any experience with allowing Persistent Spell to apply to touch spells (cast on the mage only)? Am I opening myself up to imbalance problems if I allow this?

-B-

 

[Piratecat]

Yes, indeedy. I ended up severely nerfing persistant spell in my game, and came very close to banning it outright. While it worked decently with most core spells, there were some non-core spells that became problematic. In particular, one round per level and one minute per level spells aren't ideal to have last for an entire day; persistant divine power, anyone?

I'd be really, really careful about allowing it to work on self-cast touch spells.

 

[Bauglir]

Touch spells could be considered fixed-range. After all the range is measured (presumably) from the fingertip of the hand casting spell, and from there the range on touch spells is fixed at zero.

Usually target: self spells are much worse for persistent effects than target: touch anyway. After all which is worse: Persistant Shield or persistant Mage Armour? Of course there are a few touch spells that would be a disaster cast persistant as well, not to mention any hastes.

A decent house rule might limit the persistant spell to spells with durations of at least a minute per level. (Even this is not ideal, however 10 minute/level spells are rare, and for hour/level effects, persistant spell is quickly surpassed by extend spell)

 

[LokiDR]

Don't.

Before my group knew of the errta, we were persistanting touch spells. Look at the low level cleric spells and ask your self if you would mind a person with many of those running all day. It is imbalancing.

It is bad enough that you can persist shield, divine favor, bless, and improved invis.

 

[Pax]

I still don't understand the errata for Persistent Spell. The T&B wording is entirely, completely clear IMO.

A nonvariable range spell, a personal spell,a nd any spell which is not dischrged (which actually would eliminate spells like Protection from Arrows).

Other than touch and personal, there's spit-all that IS a "fixed-range" spell, now, is there?

Okay, so, low-level Cleric spells.

Let's see; 1st-level cleric spells (all take 5th level slots):

• Bless ... big deal on the benefits ... really.
• Shield of Faith ... truly, not a HUGE boost (at top caster levels, comparable to a <i>sheild</b> spell).
• Cause Feat ... okay, so you want some wimpy thing to soil it's pants for 24 straight hours. Big deal.

2d level (all take 6th level slots; minimum caster level 11):

• various buff spells ... by the time you can cast even ONE of these as a Persistent buff, they woudl last 11 hours already. So ... the problem is what, again ...?
• Resist Elements ... so what? one resistance (12) for the day, per 6th level slot. Big whoop.
• Aid ... see bless.
• Find Traps ... wow, soooooooo overpowered.

3d level (all take 7th level slots; minimum caster level 13):

• Magic Vestment ... so what? 24 hours from a 7th level slot, or 13+ hours from a 3d level slot?

Maybe you could point me to all the horrible, overpowered low-level spells the cleric could cast (at mid to high level), which would gain a broken amount of power from the application of Persistant Spell ... ?? Because I'm just not seeing them.

 

[Barcode]

I see your points. I will stick with the strict definition in Tome and Blood. It does irk me a bit that the designers of the feat chose to limit the spells function by a rather arbitrary aspect of the spell description. Did they go through the PHB and say yeah, the personal range spells aren't too bad, and those fixed range spells are OK. Whoah! Better restrict the touch range spells - those would be really unbalancing if the were Persistent! As PK points out, it doesn't catch the non-core spells which are blythely determining their range requirements by something other than play balance while Persistent-ed.

I would have preferred an approach similar to Permanency, where only specific spells are eligible for Persistency. Sigh, once more into the house ruling breach...

 

[LokiDR]

Pax: You wanted to know the problem: here are, clerics only, a short list:
*Not having to worry about concentrating on the detect spells is nice, and encroaches on Permency.
*Invisibility to undead for your entire party.
*Protection spells: Do you have an alignment? then I am warded against you.
*Shield of faith gives a non-directional deflection bonus. Who needs a ring, when you have the spell?
*Magic Circle: any creature.
*Negative Energy Protection: makes vampires look a lot less scary.

From defenders of the faith:
Blessed Aim, Curse of the Brute, Flame of Faith

I am ignoring FR, which a lot of people use, and the Sorcerer/Wizard list. How much would items cost that do all of these things? On top of that, the cleric can get back his spell slot when it doesn't look like the ability is going to be useful any more.

And, for the record, I dislike the separate list of spells that can and can not be permancied. 3.5 should be fixing that, though.

P.S. Pax - nitpick: If, by "Cause Feat" you mean Cause Fear, my PH has that as a close ranged spell, so no persistant either way.

 

[Pax]

Pax: You wanted to know the problem: here are, clerics only, a short list:
*Not having to worry about concentrating on the detect spells is nice, and encroaches on Permency.

Irrelevant, because even POST-errata, it's persistent-able.

*Invisibility to undead for your entire party.

Are undead THAT frequent in your campaing?

*Protection spells: Do you have an alignment? then I am warded against you.

Gee, whiz. A 5th level spell slot, for a +2 deflection to AC (which won't stack with Shield of Faith, anyway), +2 resistance on saves (which probably is overlapping either anotehr spell, or, a cloak/vest of resistance -- this can only be cast by characetrs of 9th or higher level, after all!)

*Shield of faith gives a non-directional deflection bonus. Who needs a ring, when you have the spell?

It's easier to dispel a spell (or rather, SEVERAL spells) with a targetted dispel, than to realise they have a magic ring, and pick it out form the three (one magical, two nonmagical) th guy is wearing. Per hand.

I will grant you, it's a great use for Persistent Spell. So? Shouldn't there be great uses for a feat that is the second step in a feat chain?

*Magic Circle: any creature.

So? I dont' see this as a huge problem. Given this would occupy a 7th level slot, it's alrady going to last 130 minutes or more ... meaning, probably one casting owudl cover every expected encounter for the day, ANYway.

*Negative Energy Protection: makes vampires look a lot less scary.

Oh, no; now the PC has a roll to actually gasp NOT get screwed with negative levels! BEsides which, the first thing the cleric is likely to do, is pop off one or two of these anyway, upon seeing a vampire!

Furthermore, if the energy drain ability is the ONLY thing making a vampire scary to 9th or higher level characters ... then you need to throw more than JUST a vampire at them. After all, the sample Vampire in the MM1, is only CR7. By the time the cleric can cast a Persistent NEgative Energy Protection ... the Vampire is already a pushover.

From defenders of the faith:
Blessed Aim,

Well, since the cleric could conceivable concentrate for 24 hours anyway ... *shrug* I fail to see the issue, really.

Curse of the Brute,

Okay, so you can give someone (this'd be a 7th level spell remember) ... +13 to one attribute, for the whole day.

At the cost of -13 to BOTH Intelligence AND charisma! And if EITHER of those two attributes was below 16 ... you would have to either (a) give less of a boost, or (b) watch the spel fail anyway.

Say we go for a +6 bonus. Alright ... +6 Strength, -6 Int, -6 Cha. Strong, rude, and stupid ... for the day.

Costs a 7th level spell. Each day.

So, what's the problem with that?

Flame of Faith

So?

I am ignoring FR, which a lot of people use, and the Sorcerer/Wizard list. How much would items cost that do all of these things? On top of that, the cleric can get back his spell slot when it doesn't look like the ability is going to be useful any more.

Define "get his spell lsot back" -- the spell slot is consumed each day, and STAYS consumed until the cleric can next prepare spells.

And, for the record, I dislike the separate list of spells that can and can not be permancied. 3.5 should be fixing that, though.

There is no seperate list; there is the pre-approved list, and the "pay gold and ask your GM nicely" list ... which happens to be "everything else".

P.S. Pax - nitpick: If, by "Cause Feat" you mean Cause Fear, my PH has that as a close ranged spell, so no persistant either way.

True enough, I went through the list semi-at random, and forgot to check the range on that one.

Still -- I just don't see the problem. So what if a non-discharged touch spell is made persistent?

 

[kladaradatsj]

forgive me my harshness, but all these uses seem rather harmless, compared to the epic-play uses of persistent spell.

an epic spellcaster with several 'improved metamagic'-feats, and 'improved spell capacity'-s is a foe beyond reckoning, due to the possibility of having a persistent time stop.

by the rules: personal range, duration other than instantaneous, duration other than permanent, nor dispellable (sp?).

if i make any mistakes, please point them out to me, for this seems quite mind-boggling.

ps: off-topic, i am aware, but i just desired to make a note of this possibility...

 

[WattsHumphrey]

*facepalms*

Well, It doesn't look like you'll be convinced by one more voice, but I so very agree with LokiDr.

I've played clerics... a lot of them. And persistant spell is something I'll take every time if I'm trying to make a combat machine.

At low levels... yeah, it sucks. It's +4 levels, for goodness sake.

At high levels, it's to die for. A well-placed dispel will hurt you significantly, but with high level cleric spells not being too impressive (IMO, of course) and the ability to make yourself better at fighting than the average fighter, I'm all about it. Between a large bonus from Divine Favor, a decent sized one from Shield of Faith, and the buffs that clerics already get that last a day (GMW, Magic Vestment, stat buffs), you're pretty darn good at fighting. Add on top a Persistant Divine Power at 15th(?) and... wow.

Now as I said, there are things to destroy any character, and with enough dispels this guy'll have problems. But there are counter strategies to every strategy, and if the only thing you're worried about is dispel magic, I'm pretty impressed.

(oh, and after making a Mystic Theurge with Persistant spell this last week, I have a renewed feeling of total amusement at the ability to abuse this feat.)

So, yeah. If you want to extend it to touch spells, go for it... I kinda think that it should be just like Extend Spell myself... but don't be too suprised if thoughtful players start wreaking havoc with the feat.