"Tabletop RPG Workers Say Their Jobs Are No Fantasy" (article from WIRED)

[LuisCarlos17f]

This makes me remember the comic industry decades ago when writters created new characters and now these are popular and cash-cow to sell toys and other merchandiscing products.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sean Reynolds said he'd tweet out all that he told them after he's back from the con he's at...

Sean K Reynolds on working at Paizo (and other companies)

SKR has posted on his blog about his experiences while working at Paizo and other companies. There is another thread about the Wired article mentioned, but this is more detailed about the specifics of his experiences. An interesting, if sad, reading, IMHO.

www.enworld.org

 

[CapnZapp]

I didn't see anyone share this. I knew about Paizo trying to unionize (go union!) and I knew that the industry was low paying, but it seems like that is just one of the workplace issues - and that TTRPGs at least at the bigger companies where people work full-time but there is also a dependence on freelancers with abysmal rates, suffers some of the unreasonable expectations of the video game industry.

First: this is decidedly not the video game industry. This is arguably not even an industry.

Then "abysmal rates" suggests there's something wrong. But when you have an almost endless queue of fans willing to write for basically nothing, yet reach comparable quality levels, why expect higher rates?

There just is no money in this "industry". I'm not sure there's any monetary improvements for the union to make. (Getting rid of harassment, poor workplace issues, inclusivity, abusive bosses, et al, definitely!)

...but monetary recompense? Why is this article pretending table-top role-playing games is like a regular job sector? You could probably crowd-source a completely free and open ttrpg for no labor cost at all, everything from professional layout to art being just given to you from fans entirely for free. I mean, creating a VTT or a show like Legend of Vox Machina, there you need more than just free willing labor. Publishing a fantasy rulebook or adventure? Not so much.

There just isn't any money here to support your usual demands and expectations on companies. (Again not talking discrimination issues, just money) Force anyone to pay "video game industry"-standard wages except probably WotC and the commercial side of the hobby will just evaporate; with only D&D left behind. Yes, the only way to turn a profit is to monetize the creativity of your fans. (Actually, the only reason WotC is a "real" company is that for some reason Americans choose to play basically one game only. Yes, if you have half the market, said market does support one (1) company. So basically the market supports zero companies.)

The Paizo union should definitely try improving the workplace of their members. Just don't expect too much.

 

[CapnZapp]

As for representation, even if it's not reflected in the workplace culture, it's important to recognize that a company still decided that it was more profitable to be inclusive in their marketing than to just continue selling to cishet white people. That alone means something. Granted, ideally you have both an inclusive work environment and product, but it's still a step forward...

Not sure.

Could also result in a bigger backlash. If Paizo were your garden-variety reactionary stuck-in-the-sixties company, nobody would bat an eye on reports they, say, mistreated women, or people of color. More importantly, that company would not risk losing any customers, because any modern-thinking human would already be not purchasing their stuff.

Paizo, on the other hand, likely has a significant amount of customers attracted to their forward-thinking signaling. Realizing that was merely marketing might make them reconsider their product loyalty.

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

First: this is decidedly not the video game industry. This is arguably not even an industry.

Not sure how we would measure that qualification. However, I can say that if you are working full-time in an office with staff doing these games, it certainly feels like an industry. Money comes in, money goes out, people buy stuff we make...

Then "abysmal rates" suggests there's something wrong. But when you have an almost endless queue of fans willing to write for basically nothing, yet reach comparable quality levels, why expect higher rates?

This is certainly an issue. I was talking to some people from another gaming company when they let slip how much they were paying their 'freelancers' (next to nothing if any payment was being made at all). I did sort of (very diplomatically) call them out on it, and they responded by saying that if the guys are happy to work for that why would they pay more?

It is quite frustrating. Quite aside from the idea of paying peanuts and getting monkeys, it does devalue everything the rest of us do and, more than that, you would hope we could move beyond this way of thinking. You can pay people next to nothing and not update the working space they are in, keeping those extra funds for yourself but, I mean... why would you? Just a few hundred extra Quid in someone's bank account at the end of the month can make a Big difference.

Trying not to sound all Marxist here - I am a capitalist, honestly!

There just is no money in this "industry".

Well... there is. I mean, obviously there is. You don't need to sell hundreds of thousands of books a year and support a three-figure full-time staff to do well for them or yourself. That there are more lucrative markets out there is beyond doubt but that does not make RPGs a desert. The problem, I suspect, has more to do with where that money goes. If you hear about companies that are paying their staff a miniscule amount and creating poor working conditions, the first thing I would do is take a look at how the people running the company live.

Of course, if they also share those conditions, it may be more a case of that company fitting in with your idea of the industry as a whole - that certainly happens too.

But otherwise... pay your employees what they are worth. If nothing else, in the long run it will create less problems for you.

...but monetary recompense? Why is this article pretending table-top role-playing games is like a regular job sector? You could probably crowd-source a completely free and open ttrpg for no labor cost at all, everything from professional layout to art being just given to you from fans entirely for free. I mean, creating a VTT or a show like Legend of Vox Machina, there you need more than just free willing labor. Publishing a fantasy rulebook or adventure? Not so much.

Because... there is no skill required to create an RPG book?

The open source idea you cite here is an intriguing one but there are obvious issues, from the overall vision of the project to support after the fact.

In a hobby built around imagination and creating your own material, there is a very good reason why RPG companies still exist after all this time.

There just isn't any money here to support your usual demands and expectations on companies. (Again not talking discrimination issues, just money) Force anyone to pay "video game industry"-standard wages except probably WotC and the commercial side of the hobby will just evaporate; with only D&D left behind. Yes, the only way to turn a profit is to monetize the creativity of your fans. (Actually, the only reason WotC is a "real" company is that for some reason Americans choose to play basically one game only. Yes, if you have half the market, said market does support one (1) company. So basically the market supports zero companies.)

What do you imagine 'video game industry' standard wages to be? That is highly variable and, at the lower end, I believe Mongoose at least exceeds them. Higher end no, and that may never be possible - but we have all heard of the horror stories coming out of the larger video games companies recently with regards to how they treat their staff.

There is a middle ground here - pay staff decent wages and treat them right.

Also, I would certainly consider Mongoose a 'real' company, and I would cite others too - Modiphius and Cubicle 7 come to mind immediately, for their physical proximity to us if nothing else.

And right at the end there, did you just argue that one is the same as zero?

 

[CapnZapp]

It is quite frustrating. Quite aside from the idea of paying peanuts and getting monkeys, it does devalue everything the rest of us do and, more than that, you would hope we could move beyond this way of thinking.

Thank you for responding Matt! I really appreciate that.

I definitely do not aim to start an argument, but I do want to think aloud regarding this part.

I would say there is little to no connection between what you're paid and the quality of your output - regarding rules and adventures. (Not maps, art, and web sites) There just are many fans out there with at least as good an understanding of rpg rules and cool scenarios as you professional guys.

I would therefore personally hesitate before using phrases like "paying peanuts and getting monkeys".

This is a hobby where you can* pay your fans simply by lifting their work, and get stellar results.
* obvs not saying you do that

(I do realize "paying peanuts and getting monkeys" refers to the quality of the worker and not their output. Paying your workers certainly means better results regarding consistent quality, upholding deadlines and such!)

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

I definitely do not aim to start an argument, but I do want to think aloud regarding this part.

Me too, as it happens - not claiming I have all of this figured out (yet)!

I would say there is little to no connection between what you're paid and the quality of your output - regarding rules and adventures. (Not maps, art, and web sites) There just are many fans out there with at least as good an understanding of rpg rules and cool scenarios as you professional guys.

I think you answer this point here:

(I do realize "paying peanuts and getting monkeys" refers to the quality of the worker and not their output. Paying your workers certainly means better results regarding consistent quality, upholding deadlines and such!)

This is certainly a big difference - being in the position to do this full-time, each and every day, tends to get better and more consistent results.

 

[CapnZapp]

I briefly lost my internet, so just to be safe - I'm a forumist prone to exaggeration, so when I say "no companies" or "no money" please don't take that literally.

 

[CapnZapp]

This is certainly a big difference - being in the position to do this full-time, each and every day, tends to get better and more consistent results.

Let's just not lose sight of the Point here: one company might decide they value this "consistency" (which I realize is selling employment short, but...) highly, and so they decide to compensate their employees relatively richly.

Another company might decide on another path, where the value of adding an employee is constantly weighed against the relatively more troublesome activity of managing free labor. (Where I mean "free" as in "freelancer" )

In a free capitalist marketplace, both approaches are equally valid. (It probably wouldn't fly in a "communist paradise" like the Nördic countries, but I digress ). The reason we're having this discussion, I would say, is that many people thought Paizo was in the former category when it may be that they're in the latter. (Hopefully I have added enough conditionals to not make definite claims about businesses I know nothing about!)

 

[Staffan]

Then "abysmal rates" suggests there's something wrong. But when you have an almost endless queue of fans willing to write for basically nothing, yet reach comparable quality levels, why expect higher rates?

There just is no money in this "industry". I'm not sure there's any monetary improvements for the union to make. (Getting rid of harassment, poor workplace issues, inclusivity, abusive bosses, et al, definitely!)

...but monetary recompense? Why is this article pretending table-top role-playing games is like a regular job sector? You could probably crowd-source a completely free and open ttrpg for no labor cost at all, everything from professional layout to art being just given to you from fans entirely for free. I mean, creating a VTT or a show like Legend of Vox Machina, there you need more than just free willing labor. Publishing a fantasy rulebook or adventure? Not so much.

Because... there is no skill required to create an RPG book?

The open source idea you cite here is an intriguing one but there are obvious issues, from the overall vision of the project to support after the fact.

In a hobby built around imagination and creating your own material, there is a very good reason why RPG companies still exist after all this time.

My insight into the business side of RPGs is limited to what I have gleaned from various industry insiders here and in other places. I think there are two relevant things to consider here:

1. On one side, this is a hobby built on the creativity of its participants. DMs in particular are strongly encouraged to come up with their own worlds and adventures and maybe even rules bits. Some of us dream of actually getting that stuff published, which means there are large numbers of people one could tap to do some design and work for peanuts.

2. On the other side, the step from "Hey, here's a spell I came up with, what do y'all think?" to being able to produce stuff that's consistently good (or at least publishable) on a deadline is quite a big one. For complicated systems like Starfinder or Pathfinder 2, these people are fairly rare, particularly since there's probably more money in doing 5e stuff. And these are the kind of people you want working for you, either employed or as regular freelancers.

In other words, while there are certainly lots of hungry potential designers out there, they're not likely to be ones to produce consistent high-quality work.

There's another thing to consider, which is that a large portion of what happens in-house at Paizo isn't the actual writing of stuff. That's to a large degree done on a freelance basis (though in some cases done as freelance work by Paizo employees – apparently, one of the perks of working there have traditionally been getting the juiciest freelance stuff). The folks actually working at Paizo do the stuff around that: outlines, editing/development, layout, and so on. I think they keep heavy-duty design (e.g. class design) in-house as well, but things like adventure paths and books like the Mwangi Expanse? That's mostly freelance. That means that the people actually working there are the ones who do the planning and stuff for their books, and I reckon that's even harder to replace than primary design. Well, that and a lot of support staff (e.g. customer service or IT) who are also covered by the union.

And speaking of freelancers and the union, one of the reasons Paizo were so fast in recognizing the union was that they were told by many freelancers that they were withholding labor until the union was recognized. In other words, while Paizo employees didn't go on strike, freelancers did (or as close as you can get as a freelancer). So if Paizo wanted to replace truculent employees, these are the people they'd go to for replacements, and they don't seem particularly inclined to be scabs.