Take 10 & Take 20 -- differences?

[Hammerforge]

Other than the obvious numerical difference between these two, I wonder what other difference there is between them. The SRD says:

Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

Taking 20

When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

What I'm wondering about, specifically, is when you take 10 or take 20. I know the SRD says that you may take 10 "[w]hen your character is not being threatened or distracted," but the rules for taking 20 say something very similar, just with different wording: "When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure,..." IOW, the take 20 requirement of having plenty of time and not being faced with threats or distractions is very similar to the take 10 requirement of "not being threatened or distracted."

So, if I'm reading it right, both may be used only in non-threatening, non-distracting situations, which is really to say that both may be used when you have plenty of time. Thus, there seems to be no difference in the time allowed for each one.

As I said above, the only real difference I see between the two is the numerical difference, which itself indicates a difference in the level of risk of failure involved in the tasks attempted. You take 20 when you are trying to accomplish a far tougher task than you would attempt if you were taking 10.

Any thoughts from you gurus out there? I know I'm missing something here, but what is it? (Some game examples might be helpful.)

Thanks!

 

[Wystan]

The most important part about taking 20 is as follows:

and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

This means you have effectively tried multiple times and can only do so if there is no failure penalty. Trying to talk a merchant into a bargain is a Take 10 area, not a take 20 as he would see through you trying 20 times to influence him.

You tried the skill 20 times as opposed to you just did a careful trial and got the normal outcome.

 

[Pyrex]

The Climb skill is a great example.

If you're in no particular hurry and aren't in combat, you can Take 10 your way up the wall. However, in combat you're threatened & distracted and would have to roll.

However, you can't Take 20, because failing a Climb check (by 5 or more anyway) means you fall.

Likewise Balance.

Escape Artist is (as noted above) an excellent counter-example. When you're in an empty cell, an expert Escape Artist could Take 10 and escape in a round. His apprentice, with a much poorer skill modifier, would instead spend two minutes to Take 20 in order to meet the high DC.

 

[Slobber Monster]

Take 10 attempts take as long as the action normally takes. It represents unexceptional but undistracted effort to do something you would expect to always do successfully without mitigating circumstances. Non heroic stuff with a low enough DC to fall in that range for untrained people includes things like climbing a ladder, swimming across a pool, or jumping across a 2 ft. puddle on the sidewalk,

Take 20 is for things you can just work on until you get it done. It takes 20 x the length of time the action normally takes (i.e 2 minutes for a 1 round action). If you have the expertise to do it at all, and there are no consequences for failure, then given a small measure of patience eventually you're going to be successful.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You could use Take 20 in a threatening and strenuous situation, but it isn't really advisable, since it will take so long to complete, the threatening and strenuous situation will probably be resolved before you finish. You might as well just roll in those cases.

 

[Staffan]

Take 10 is doing things "by the book." You're not taking any risks, so you won't be doing spectacularly, but you wont suck either.

Take 20 is doing things until you get it right. You try and try and try until you either succeed or exhaust all other options. In game terms, it is basically a shorthand for attempting the action 20 times and assuming that during one of those attempts you will roll a 20.

 

[Question]

Can you take 10 on hide/move silently checks?

 

[cmanos]

RAW don't say you can't, but I would say it would be a case by case basis.

If you are the only one around and have all the time in the world to hide yourself...yes you can take 20 and hide yourself really, really well. If you have around 6 seconds before a guard comes around the corner and you have to hide, I'd say no. If you have longer than 6 second sbut less that 2 minutes, I'd probably allow you to Take 10.

Taking 20 on Move Silently...Sure you can...if you want to move VERY slowly. And if anyone is in earshot...no...you can't, or else they will hear you, because they will be taking 20 ont heir listen checks.

 

[Slobber Monster]

Hide and move silently have consequences for failure and no immediate feedback for success so they're not eligible for take 20. If someone takes extra time and care to hide themselves really well they should get a circumstance bonus to their Hide roll, not a take 20.

 

[irdeggman]

Hide and move silently have consequences for failure and no immediate feedback for success so they're not eligible for take 20. If someone takes extra time and care to hide themselves really well they should get a circumstance bonus to their Hide roll, not a take 20.

Actually they don't have consequences for failing because you can't "fail" either one.

They are "opposed" checks so while someone may spot or hear you another character wouldn't.

But since they are "opposed" it makes it difficult to fid the right circumstances where you can take 10 or 20. As pointed out early setting up a hiding place when no one is around is probably a good circumstance where takeing 20 would apply.

I am having a difficult time figuring out when taking 20 would work with moving silently and even taking 10.