Take 20

[CullAfulMoshuN]

Sorry to hyjack your thread, but a similar question was argued IMC a couple of weeks ago. The PCs were doing a breakin and one wanted to take 20 to search for traps. I ruled that he couldn't, but I believe he still disagrees.

What are your opinions on this? There is no immediate consequence for failure, but there is the implied consequence that they don't believe the trap is there. He believed he could because he wanted to be sure, but I thought he was meta gaming - if the PC failed his search check the first time then he would believe there was nothing there, so way keep looking?

I conceeded on allowing for taking 10 (not that it would normally help) because that represents taking your time to look, rather than retrying.

Thoughs?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Characters can Take 20 when searching for traps, though it's rarely advisable - the time it takes is prohibitive. To thouroughly search a 5'x5'x5' cube takes 12 minutes; a 10'x10'x200' coridor takes over 10 hours.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

If the PC's are breaking into a place, then they fail the criteria for taking 20, most likely.

Since it takes 2 minutes to take 20 on a search check, then searching a room is basically impossible. It will take him 2 minutes to search each and every 5' square, and if they are breaking the law, they will want to get away as fast as possible.

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

But assuming they have the time (they knew the owner wouldn't be back for hours) I still disagreed that the PC could take 20.

Because it represents retrying, why would you retry looking for traps if you thought you tried your hardest the first time and failed to find any? What would make you think you could do any any better to try again? Would you allow a PC to retry a failed search check when searching for traps? Don't you think that is meta gaming abit (ie. knowing that you may have failed your die roll)?

I roll search checks for the PCs by the way, so they don't know for sure whether they passed or whether there is a trap or not, just me saying that they carefully examined the door and are fairly certain that they could find no traces of hidden traps on it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But assuming they have the time (they knew the owner wouldn't be back for hours) I still disagreed that the PC could take 20.

Well...

Search is actually the skill they use as an example of Taking 20, on PHB p62.

Because it represents retrying, why would you retry looking for traps if you thought you tried your hardest the first time and failed to find any?

Ever lost your keys? Gone through the living room, the bedroom , the kitchen... didn't find them?

But they have to be there. So you go back to the living room, and methodically lift every item - even that book that's been sitting there for a month - until you're absolutely convinced there is not a key to be found. Then you go to the bedroom and do the same thing.

If the rogue spends 6 seconds checking the chest for traps, and doesn't find any, don't you think he's within his rights to think "Hang on... every other chest has been trapped... let me be more thorough here"?

I agree that it makes sense for the DM to roll Search checks. Otherwise, sure, that glaring "2" in front is an invitation to metagame. But I don't think someone should be prohibited from checking again in case they missed something the first time.

-Hyp.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You certainly can take 20 to search for a secret door but you can't take 20 to search for trap.

If you fail to notice a trap you will likely trip it while searching the area (for traps)!

It reminds me of my training in the army when we did the course on setting booby traps. I used a green wire and tied it between two twigs near the base of a tree and camouflaged it very well. The real trap was just under the area you'd have to step on to examine the wire. It was a pressure plate that was designed to set off an explosive. Of course it only had a detonaror, no explosive. We weren't trying to kill each other!

When another fellow soldier was assigned to try to find my booby trap it took him 15 minutes before noticing the hidden wire. When he carefully approached to inspect it, he stepped on the pressure plate and ended up owing me a beer. Sucker.

Anyway, my point is you either see the trap or fall victim to it while you search. So you can't take 20 in that case. IMC a failed search check often result in having the trap blow in your face.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You certainly can take 20 to search for a secret door but you can't take 20 to search for trap.

Nice story, but the rules do let you Take 20 when searching for traps - check out the range in the Search description, page 73.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Then I have to disagree with the rules.

Searching for traps is a dangerous business that can get you killed. There is a danger if you fail and therefore it should be impossible to take 20 or even 10 unless you are an 11th+ level rogue with the skill mastery ability in search.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'll agree with Disable Device, but not Search. In fact, I'm surprised you're allowed to Take 10 on DD...

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Well, you're not allowed to take 10 in Disable device unless you have skill mastery (disable device), a special ability that a high level rogue can choose to gain.

And I meant search, not disable device in my earlier post. I edited it.