Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

[TwoSix]

I don't mind healing surges conceptually, I just dislike the implementation. I wouldn't mind them restoring an "other" HP pool, but I don't like them when they're coupled with a "physical" HP pool. But that's my preference. You have yours, and that's cool. I'm glad the game works for you

I usually just think of 4e as not having a "physical" HP pool. All the HPs are "other".

 

[JamesonCourage]

I usually just think of 4e as not having a "physical" HP pool. All the HPs are "other".

I think this would bug me with any wound system that you can be killed from, but it's an interesting take on it. I mean, if you die due to HP, it has obviously physically killed you. I feel that physical wounds have to be at least a part of it, but the take of "all 'other' until death" is certainly one way to go about it. As always, play what you like

 

[Hussar]

When I started this thread, I actually did have a goal in mind. I was told that because of healing surges, the game has lost a large amount of narrative space. That the "serious wound" was a very important element in narrating the game.

Ok, fair enough. But, I wanted specifics. I wanted to see exactly what people meant. So, I provided a fairly bog standard example and asked for specific examples of how a "serious wound" narration was possible. I got quite a few less responses than I had hoped for. So far, we've got one example of a narration that is demonstrably difficult to do with the healing surge mechanic. There have been more than one example given, to be sure, but, often the examples are problematic - either they are too serious to be plausibly healed away in a relatively short period of time, or they required going beyond the mechanics and raised more issues than they solved.

So, time passed.

Then a new challenge got added. The idea of the Heroic Comeback. So, in the spirit of this thread, I provided a pretty concrete example of how the healing surge mechanics help with the heroic comeback. The response I got was a big "so what". Well, here's the so what in my mind.

While people keep telling me that there is this huge narrative hole that cannot be filled by healing surges, there is a very decided lack of actual examples. It's very easy to claim whatever you like, but, until I can see some actual evidence, I'm going to remain very skeptical and believe that the whole thing is more about a group of DM's insisting on a playstyle that actually isn't terribly well supported by the rules.

On the other hand, I can easily provide examples from genre of the Heroic Comeback and how Healing Surges fill the narrative requirements. In my opinion, we've lost a small puddle of narrative space and gained a lake full.

Here's one example that came to mind very quickly - Empire Strikes Back. - Fast forward to about 1:25 in the video.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjDn3SWVqTY&t=1m53s]The Empire Strikes Back: Luke escapes the Wampa - YouTube[/ame]

That scene cannot be done in 3e. In 3e, once you've gone below zero hp, you're done. It's been argued very eloquently that a character that drops below zero is most likely going to die, but, even if he stabilized, he still couldn't fight. But, with healing surges, Luke rolls well on his death save and he's back in the game.

[sblock]Unless people want to start arguing that the Wampus is doing subdual damage. But, honestly, I think that's just ridiculous. [/sblock]

 

[Bedrockgames]

You certainly make a valid point about heroic comeback, but I think a number of posters have stated they have trouble describing unjuries using the 4E system and have explained why (I am not saying there aren't ways to attempt it in 4E, but all the methods explained so far fall short for most of us). This may not be the case in your game. In mine I find it a major obstacle to having fun (as a player as well). Definitely not a corner case for me. I think part of the issue is you only recognize it as a problem when people hit the negatives, but a number of the posters here have said it becomes an issue for them well before that (and examples were provided). Again, that doesn't mean it is a problem for everyone. However I think this is a legitimate complaint.

None of us dispute that this is a style issue. The issue is our style was supported by the older rules (and honeslty this is how virtually every gaming group I've been in the last twenty years has handled HP in D&D). Now we find the mechanics disrupt the kind of game we like to run.

Ultimately, if you enjoy 4E and can play the kind of game you want with it, that is the edition for you. Just because some of us have issues with the system, that shouldn't impact your fun.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I know that this example is probably totally "unrealistic" of the way the game "should" play.

But this is what I want from the game. Whether its part of the Fantasy Fiction of the past or not.



I know it's unrealistic and way too heroic to get knocked on your ass by a fireball and be wounded and just simply "quickly recover", but that is the type of action I want from my game.

BTW, except for the change to troglodytes, weapons, and the D&D party composition that is almost verbatim the real story of how Sgt. John F. Baker. Jr. was awarded the medal of honor in 1966. He is alive and well today.

I'd rather have my campaigns have that type of "heroic" action than heroes that have to spend 4 weeks on bed rest. But that's just me.

I think you have laid out very reasonable expectations. For me this is just a matter of preference. I can totally see why people don't want the derailment of dealing with mundane healing in previous editions. That makes sense to me and I can see why 4E would be a good fit for you. It isn't my style, but I can see where you are coming from.

 

[Griego]

Are you saying that there is no impossible thing anyone could ever suggest for your 4E game that you would ever find unacceptable? (unacceptable defined as "making the game less fun so you choose not to accept it.")

Or does this same standard apply to you?

Serious question.

Did Conan ever do anything "impossible"?
Would it be acceptable in a Conan story for him to get so mad that he threw fireballs out of his eyes and killed his foes that way?

Maybe it would be to you.
That would be unacceptable to me.
I love the impossible things Conan does. I love that there are impossible things that Conan so obviously can not do.
Fireballs from his eyes are unacceptable.
Major battle wounds that he can think away are unacceptable.

Are my positions regarding Conan reasonable?

I've not kept up with this whole thread, but regarding major battle wounds, maybe just don't narrate entrails spilling out or limbs coming off if the PC has healing surges left? When healing surges are used up, then you know the character is vulnerable to more serious wounds. Am I missing something here, it's still early and I've not finished my coffee yet.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

The Empire Strikes Back: Luke escapes the Wampa - YouTube

That scene cannot be done in 3e. In 3e, once you've gone below zero hp, you're done. It's been argued very eloquently that a character that drops below zero is most likely going to die, but, even if he stabilized, he still couldn't fight. But, with healing surges, Luke rolls well on his death save and he's back in the game.

[sblock]Unless people want to start arguing that the Wampus is doing subdual damage. But, honestly, I think that's just ridiculous. [/sblock]

Actually, we don't know how much time has passed. I'd argue that Luke has been unconscious overnight and awakens at 1 hp.

 

[D'karr]

Actually, we don't know how much time has passed. I'd argue that Luke has been unconscious overnight and awakens at 1 hp.

Hard for it to be the next day as Han Solo left before night on the same day to get him, and found him just before dusk.

 

[billd91]

That scene cannot be done in 3e. In 3e, once you've gone below zero hp, you're done. It's been argued very eloquently that a character that drops below zero is most likely going to die, but, even if he stabilized, he still couldn't fight. But, with healing surges, Luke rolls well on his death save and he's back in the game.

Fortunately we don't have to use 3e. If you use SWSE, the wampa's attack sent Luke down 5 steps on the condition track or, if it did in his hit points, he spent a Force point to not die.
Then, maybe he used his second wind to get back some hit points.

Keep in mind that it's not always just the change of narrative options, it's the frequency with which this occurs. In SWSE, Luke can only catch his second wind once per day. (Twice if he spent a feat on it. Thrice if he also took a specific talent.) He can only do it so often. I would argue that in 4e, it can happen so often that it cheapens it too much.

 

[D'karr]

But how much do we know about the days on Hoth???!!!

I'd say that they are cold, and that the nights are colder!!!!

That's all I've got.