Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

[Rogue Agent]

So, put your money where your mouth is. I'm not a doctor. I have no real idea how long stuff takes to heal, other than a pretty good idea that anything like this:

takes a HELL of a lot longer than days to heal. We're talking months, if not never for that wound to be recovered. So, by the criteria in the OP, this one's a bust. There's just no way anyone's going to buy that an attack that rips through BONE is, in any way, recoverable in days.

Yes. I'd agree that this strawman is full of straw.

... wait. What was the question again?

That scene cannot be done in 3e. In 3e, once you've gone below zero hp, you're done. It's been argued very eloquently that a character that drops below zero is most likely going to die, but, even if he stabilized, he still couldn't fight. But, with healing surges, Luke rolls well on his death save and he's back in the game.

(1) That precise scene? Maybe not. But it's almost trivial to get a scene very much like it.

(2) But it actually can be modeled. In 3E, Luke has been out in the severe cold on patrol for while. If he's failed a couple of Fortitude saves, he'd be down 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. Wampa deals enough lethal damage to knock him out from the nonlethal damage. The nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 hit points per hour per character level and he wakes up.

Summary: Even if I bought into the whole "let's try to model a very specific piece of fiction using game rules" as having any sort of validity as a methodology (and I don't), you don't really seem to have much of a point here.

(As an exercise for the reader: Assume that only 5 minutes passes from the wampa's attack and Luke waking up. That's 50 rounds. Calculate the odds of rolling 49 death saves without (a) failing three times or (b) rolling a 20.

If one were serious about avoiding dubiously defined "corner cases", they'd probably be better off arguing that the wampa chose to knock him unconscious because it likes to keep its meat fresh, allowing Luke to automatically wake up after a short rest. Of course, in 3E, this would mean the wampa would have been dealing nonlethal damage... which explains why it wasn't available for Hussar's rhetorical purposes.)

 

[JamesonCourage]

Yes. I'd agree that this strawman is full of straw.

... wait. What was the question again?



(1) That precise scene? Maybe not. But it's almost trivial to get a scene very much like it.

(2) But it actually can be modeled. In 3E, Luke has been out in the severe cold on patrol for while. If he's failed a couple of Fortitude saves, he'd be down 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. Wampa deals enough lethal damage to knock him out from the nonlethal damage. The nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 hit points per hour per character level and he wakes up.

Summary: Even if I bought into the whole "let's try to model a very specific piece of fiction using game rules" as having any sort of validity as a methodology (and I don't), you don't really seem to have much of a point here.

(As an exercise for the reader: Assume that only 5 minutes passes from the wampa's attack and Luke waking up. That's 50 rounds. Calculate the odds of rolling 49 death saves without (a) failing three times or (b) rolling a 20.

If one were serious about avoiding dubiously defined "corner cases", they'd probably be better off arguing that the wampa chose to knock him unconscious because it likes to keep its meat fresh, allowing Luke to automatically wake up after a short rest. Of course, in 3E, this would mean the wampa would have been dealing nonlethal damage... which explains why it wasn't available for Hussar's rhetorical purposes.)

I must spread some XP around... but this about nails it on the head. +1.

As always, play what you like

 

[Mallus]

Heroic fiction routinely allows character to be seriously wounded and not "beat on his chest all night screaming like King Kong, or what have you".
Heroic fiction DOES NOT allow character to think wounds closed.

Heroic fiction does allow for location-specific injuries and impairment.
Heroic fiction does allow for broken bones and severed limbs.

What can we conclude from this?

There are differences between D&D and HEROIC FICTION. Or perhaps, D&D is not exactly analogous to HEROIC FICTION.

 

[billd91]

Heroic fiction does allow for location-specific injuries and impairment.
Heroic fiction does allow for broken bones and severed limbs.

What can we conclude from this?

There are differences between D&D and HEROIC FICTION. Or perhaps, D&D is not exactly analogous to HEROIC FICTION.

Or, more appropriately, D&D is probably is a subset of or overlaps significantly with a subset of heroic fiction.

 

[BryonD]

Actually, I thought I had largely conceded the "serious wound" thing quite a while ago. I still think it's a fairly corner case scenario, but, it is something that would be very difficult to do in 4e by RAW. Adding it in isn't terribly strenuous and if you look around, you'll find that there are a number of systems already available to add it back in. Typically uses the disease track system.

OK.
It is not a "corner case" in my experience. But, again, I'm not arguing that everyone should like or everyone should dislike surges. I'm arguing that there is a distinct narrative difference and that cause a very reasonable justification for disliking surges.

However, I'm frankly astonished at your reaction here considering how important "being in a novel" is to you. Is there a trope in fantasy more common than the "heroic comeback"? It appears all over the place in genre literature. There are tons of action movies and fantasy movies (and action fantasy movies) where the hero gets knocked down, left for dead, the bad guy turns to the crowd to deliver some sort of speach, the good guy gets off the ground and kicks the bad guy's ass.

I'd even venture to say that this is FAR more common than the hero being sidelined for days or weeks multiple times in the same movie.

I don't agree with that as a common thing at all. Certainly not cases of a character being completely knocked out cold and within the same scene recovering entirely on his own and finishing the fight.

The cliche of the maiden's kiss fits here. And that works without surges.
The cliche of a simple break in the action before the next "scene" where the hero recovers is, also, common and easily already covered pre-surge.
And, of course, the cliche of the hero being one blow away from being killed outright and suddenly winning the day is highly common. And that has been covered many times in these threads.

All the actual cliches are well covered by HP and gain nothing from surges.

The idea of an unconscious character actively willing himself back into consciousness though.... I can't say I'm familiar with that as a cliche and I can also say that I've been playing for decades without it, have not missed it, and don't want it now.

 

[BryonD]

Heroic fiction does allow for location-specific injuries and impairment.
Heroic fiction does allow for broken bones and severed limbs.

What can we conclude from this?

There are differences between D&D and HEROIC FICTION. Or perhaps, D&D is not exactly analogous to HEROIC FICTION.

VERY CLOSE to being exactly right.

But you missed a point.

IF you had said: There are differences between the way MALLUS likes to play D&D and HEROIC FICTION. Then you would have scored an A+.

And that is EXACTLY the point I have made multiple times.

But since you left that out and replaced your concept of "playing D&D" with a suggestion that it is in fact the one and only concept of how ANYONE could play D&D, it seems clear you are oblivious to other play styles.

D&D *CAN BE* played in a manner that does an AWESOME job of being a model of heroic fiction. (well, pre 4E D&D that is)

If you don't grok that, then the idea that there is something wrong with surges with be unfathomable to you.

 

[BryonD]

I've not kept up with this whole thread, but regarding major battle wounds, maybe just don't narrate entrails spilling out or limbs coming off if the PC has healing surges left? When healing surges are used up, then you know the character is vulnerable to more serious wounds. Am I missing something here, it's still early and I've not finished my coffee yet.

Yes, you are missing something.
At least two things.

First, without surges, I can describe the very first wound a character takes as serious if it works well that way. Adding a requirement that I wait out surges first does nothing to solve the problem.

Second, a fighter alone in the woods who has been narrated as having his entrails spilling out, but manages to escape and hide gets his surges back and can think his guts back into place in the morning. There is still NEVER a need for any medical care. It remains "wrong".

Yes, a fighter out of surges and alone is in very real danger of getting killed. And the same pre-4E fighter would be every bit as much in danger of dying. Surges are irrelevant to that point and it adds zero merit to surges.

Pre-4E the fighter would still need days of rest or else he would need to find an actual source of healing. He would need SOME narrative element of healing. With surges he springs back to completely unwounded from anything.

 

[Hussar]

This is interesting because it goes against my experience with 4e (but obviously not yours). What do you think Luke's level would be within the 4e structure at this point? How many hps would you expect him to have? How much damage would an appropriate solo do (considering that Luke most likely kills the wampa with a daily which again does not seem to fit in with 4e mechanics but I suppose critical/force/light sabre equals a one shot kill for Luke but not in my experience in 4e). By the way in 4e, our group tends not to be hyper-optimizers so I don't know if that has an effect on this or not (I'm pretty sure it doesn't but heh, who knows what those optimizers get up to these days).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise.

Since we're nit picking the crap out of stuff - Luke doesn't actually kill the Wampus. He cuts off its arm, but it's not dead. Heck, it would be just as easy to use a daily, bloody the target and then an Intimidate check to end the fight.

Oh, and since we're actually going to use the rules:

Knocking Creatures Unconscious

When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you can choose to knock it unconscious rather than kill it. Until it regains hit points, the creature is unconscious but not dying. Any healing makes the creature conscious. If the creature doesn’t receive any healing, it is restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious after a short rest.

and

Short Rest

Duration: A short rest is about 5 minutes long.

No Limit per Day: You can take as many short rests per day as you want.

No Strenuous Activity: You have to rest during a short rest. You can stand guard, sit in place, ride on a wagon or other vehicle, or do other tasks that don’t require much exertion.

Renew Powers: After a short rest, you renew your encounter powers, so they are available for your next encounter.

Spend Healing Surges: After a short rest, you can spend as many healing surges as you want. If you run out of healing surges, you must take an extended rest to regain them.

Using Powers while You Rest: If you use an encounter power (such as a healing power) during a short rest, you need another short rest to renew it so that you can use it again.

Interruptions: If your short rest is interrupted, you need to rest another 5 minutes to get the benefits of a short rest.

There, easy peasy. The wampus kept Luke alive because he'd "keep" in the larder longer. He doesn't get to take a short rest while the Wampus is dragging him along the ground, because, well, I'd say that being dragged across the ground by some nasty monster counts as an "interruption". Once he gets glued to the ceiling, he gets to take his short rest while the Wampus chows down on Tauntaun.

 

[technoextreme]

Second, a fighter alone in the woods who has been narrated as having his entrails spilling out, but manages to escape and hide gets his surges back and can think his guts back into place in the morning. There is still NEVER a need for any medical care. It remains "wrong".

A fighter who has his entrails spilling out is dead. End of story period. Next time pick an example where the narration isn't over the top and bad.

 

[BryonD]

A fighter who has his entrails spilling out is dead. End of story period. Next time pick an example where the narration isn't over the top and bad.

Ok, so not getting hung up on the bad example the pro-surge person offered means I lose the debate.

Noted.