Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

[Bedrockgames]

It's feeling not reaction. It doesn't matter if it's visceral, I already said that but it that won't stop me from pointing where your assumptions are ill-informing your criticisms.

Then I guess I don't understand why you are bringing up the issue of it being visceral.

I don't believe my assumptions are ill-informed. But you haven't really addressed them specifically. I believe you made some general comment that I had faulty assumptions built up over years of play. But you didn't say what those assumptions are or why they are wrong. I am happy to hear you out though.

And no.

Fair enough.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

I would have picked it as more down to roleplaying and intelligence rather than from the martial power source.
The powers of a Paladin make them a notable warrior despite (and perhaps particularly because they are) coming from a divine source.
What exactly is a swashbuckler here?
For out of combat situations, I feel all editions of Dungeons and Dragons have tried to emphasize the freedom of roleplaying the PCs as the players see fit (and likely in accord with one another).

Let's just stick to narrative space outside of combat for now, since that is what your example illustrates. So war tactics are intellectual rather than experiential? If a non-martial class can not perform any notable feat of martial based action then how can an arcane wizard have any notable knowledge about something covered in the martial power source, namely the warlord's bread and butter?

Again it depends. If there are a lot of injuries or someone went deep into the negatives or failed a couple of death saves, then the narrative of the PCs condition is obviously significant, dramatic (hopefully) and dominant after combat. I do however feel that the rules as written restrict me here when describing such things as I have mentioned across the entirety of this thread (and really, that was the initial premise of the thread and my disagreeing with it).

Those limitations are not set by the rules. Healing surges aren't explicit, your assumptions have put those limitations there. Which was my motivation for the initial reply to ByronD's post.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

Then I guess I don't understand why you are bringing up the issue of it being visceral.

I don't believe my assumptions are ill-informed. But you haven't really addressed them specifically. I believe you made some general comment that I had faulty assumptions built up over years of play. But you didn't say what those assumptions are or why they are wrong. I am happy to hear you out though.

Fair enough.

If you step back you would see that I initially brought up visceral as a conclusion to the responses by Herremann the Wise. The point was to clarify in the spirit of mutual understanding.

You jumped in between a reply to somebody else. How am I supposed to address your specific concerns? I also don't really have an interest in being heard out because you have already expressed the that your opinion is unlikely to change.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If you step back you would see that I initially brought up visceral as a conclusion to the responses by Herremann the Wise. The point was to clarify in the spirit of mutual understanding.

You jumped in between a reply to somebody else. How am I supposed to address your specific concerns? I also don't really have an interest in being heard out because you have already expressed the that your opinion is unlikely to change.

My enjoyment of healing surges is unlikely to change (just as I doubt I can convince you they are problematic), but if my core assumptions about them are incorrect I am open to hearing about that.

You may have been addressing herman but at one point you called my opinion purely visceral and said my underlying assumptions were ill-informed. But you wouldn't get into specifics on the later (to be honest I am not sure where you were going with the former, and I am not entirely convinced tgat my opinions are visceral but your's aren't).

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

You may have been addressing herman but at one point you called my opinion purely visceral and said my underlying assumptions were ill-informed.

That was specifically in response to "my fighter suddenly has divine magic" which is not what healing surges amount to or what I suggested either. The healing magic narrative can be attributed to healing surges but that does translate into "my fighter is healing itself". Mundane narratives like adrenaline, natural medicines etc also don't attribute to a lack of believability.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That was specifically in response to "my fighter suddenly has divine magic" which is not what healing surges amount to or what I suggested either. The healing magic narrative can be attributed to healing surges but that does translate into "my fighter is healing itself". Mundane narratives like adrenaline, natural medicines etc also don't attribute to a lack of believability.

Whether any mechanic is believable enough or not is kind of a subjective call. I am not suggesting you should have the same experience as me with them. Some people found the explanation offered in tge 4e phb totally acceptable, others didn't. And the reasons for those differences have been pretty well argued by both sides in this and other threads on the subject.

I said it could be mundane as well but was responding to your suggestion that it could also be due to divine magic (as in the warlord example). My issue is I find both explanations difficult. On the one hand if I heal and there is no cleric around then I am healing myself through magical means of some kind, or I am nearly instantly healing myself through mundane means (adrenaline, etc). I just find it disruptive. You may find it perfectly believable, I don't. Damage in the game has traditionally been both physical and non-physical (though i would argue in practice it has been mostly treated as physical). So there is physical damage in there being cured by a mundane method in the explanation offered. I found 3e natural healing a stretch but acceptable. To me this just takes it a step too far.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

Whether any mechanic is believable enough or not is kind of a subjective call. I am not suggesting you should have the same experience as me with them. Some people found the explanation offered in tge 4e phb totally acceptable, others didn't. And the reasons for those differences have been pretty well argued by both sides in this and other threads on the subject.

I said it could be mundane as well but was responding to your suggestion that it could also be due to divine magic (as in the warlord example). My issue is I find both explanations difficult. On the one hand if I heal and there is no cleric around then I am healing myself through magical means of some kind, or I am nearly instantly healing myself through mundane means (adrenaline, etc). I just find it disruptive. You may find it perfectly believable, I don't. Damage in the game has traditionally been both physical and non-physical (though i would argue in practice it has been mostly treated as physical). So there is physical damage in there being cured by a mundane method in the explanation offered. I found 3e natural healing a stretch but acceptable. To me this just takes it a step too far.

There is no narrative difference between 3e natural healing and healing surges. You are missing the point, a healing surge is androgynous, they cover a whole host of narrative options.

If you're unwilling to accept that then there isn't much hope for your view of tradition and how that fits into the game. Which, as I said earlier, relies on your assumptions about how healing should work in a narrative sense.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There is no narrative difference between 3e natural healing and healing surges. You are missing the point, a healing surge is androgynous, they cover a whole host of narrative options.

If you're unwilling to accept that then there isn't much hope for your view of tradition and how that fits into the game. Which, as I said earlier, relies on your assumptions about how healing should work in a narrative

There is a big difference that I see (but if you don't that is cool.. Ymmv). Natural healing in 3e took time. If you lost 20 hp and didm't have magical healing you couldn't regain that in 3e in a few minutes with a short rest. In 4e the short rest allows for very speedy recovery of those 20 points. There is a limit to it, and for some that limits makes the explanation of the surge more an acceptible. I personally find it disruptive. One minute I am down 20 hp, the next, through non magical means, i regain them. There are arguments, good arguments, to explain this. I just find those arguments require too much mental gymnastics.

Clearly we disagree. That is totally fine. If your getting enjoyment out of 4e, great.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

There is a big difference that I see (but if you don't that is cool.. Ymmv). Natural healing in 3e took time. If you lost 20 hp and didm't have magical healing you couldn't regain that in 3e in a few minutes with a short rest. In 4e the short rest allows for very speedy recovery of those 20 points. There is a limit to it, and for some that limits makes the explanation of the surge more an acceptible. I personally find it disruptive. One minute I am down 20 hp, the next, through non magical means, i regain them. There are arguments, good arguments, to explain this. I just find those arguments require too much mental gymnastics.

Clearly we disagree. That is totally fine. If your getting enjoyment out of 4e, great.

Healing surges take time. The time can even be measured to taste, since all time is measured by those at the table sharing the imaginary space. I fail to see how that is mental gymnastics but okay.

I fear you're going to stick to your guns no matter what, so.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Healing surges take time. The time can even be measured to taste, since all time is measured by those at the table sharing the imaginary space. I fail to see how that is mental gymnastics but okay.

I fear you're going to stick to your guns no matter what, so.

Not according to the phb. Healing surges can be spent in an instant through second wind or you can spend as many as you want with a short rest (which is five minutes). That is very different from taking a full day to get a chunk of hp back.

The mental gymnastics come in for me when people argue for healing surges as another kind of hp and so forth.

I am not refusing to listen to your argument or anything but, like you, I have a strong opinion on the subject and have had a good deal of time to think about it. You made a strong case and I explained why It doesn't persuade me. Like I said we disagree and that is totally cool.