taking 10 - exactly what skills and skill uses are covered?

[evilbob]

When you take 10 it means your clear your mind, focus on the task at hand, and do your solid average effort.

But that's just it - you don't produce your average effort. You don't produce any effort at all - you either know it or you don't. Why does duress affect the fact that you know something?

I mean, I understand the idea that stress could make things hard to remember, sure - but that's not what this check is about. It's not about remembering - it's about knowing it at all. You either know or you don't. Why should stress effect whether or not you read that in a book 20 years ago?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

This sums up my problem with the ability nicely. If you're threatened or distracted, suddenly you have a chance not to know something? But if you can "take your time," you might know it? That's intuitively wrong for something "you either know or don't know." Why does "being distracted" allow you to potentially not know something that not being distracted didn't?

A possible reason:
In battle with the threat of your existence upon you, with shadows flying everywhere as your fellow adventurers try to co-ordinate well enough together to take down "the beast in front of you", you might be a little distracted, not getting enough visual detail to identify that it's a glabrezu, what with you trying to find that healing potion, wand, weapon or what not to defend yourself.

However, once the party has felled the beast and with clear lantern-light upon it's body and an unrushed view of the creature, you may just remember that demon anatomy book you studied once upon a time and how this thing fits a particular category.

Personally, I prefer to make all knowledge checks behind the screen. For significant knowledge checks that I am expecting, I write up a sheet and just rip off the requiste knowledge note to be passed to the player if they succeed. If the check is one where a take 10 would succeed given the ranks of a character, I'd have to be feeling pretty mean not to hand out the note.

What I would have liked to have seen in the rules is varying degrees of failure, when a failure does occur. For example, if a check just misses, you may have confused the beast with one similar (or perhaps even completely different). Only a badly failed check should result in "you have no idea whatsoever what that creature is".

I suppose for the majority of purposes taking 10 on a knowledge check really doesn't cause too many issues.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Rhun]

Well, as I said above, that's why I prefer a karma mechanic like Hero or Action points so that any one bad roll isn't an instant death. But that's kind of a seperate issue. My point is that climbing down a 200' cliff face isn't 100% risk free in the real world, so it probably shouldn't be in the game. Take 10 is good as a convenience, to save time and avoid pointless rolling, but it shouldn't make the game less exciting.

Why does everyone think that a DC10 climb check applies to a 200' cliff face? It applies to ship's rigging, and any surface with ledges to hold and stand on. We aren't talking about a straight up and down cliff, which would be DC15-20, and thus not doable for just anyone taking 10 on their check.

 

[amethal]

Nothing spells "heroic" like falling to your death because the DM wouldn't let you take 10.

Reminds me of my first MERP character.

Tried to climb a tree in the first encounter, in order to hide from some orcs.

Fumbled the climb check, then rolled open ended on the fumble consequences check.

The GM initially said the fall killed me, then either re-read the rules or decided to fudge (I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know which it was). Instead I lost an eye, had a couple of my ability scores permanently reduced, and the session was basically over for me because my character was unconscious for the rest of it.

The GM never actually did run another session.

 

[bodhi]

You can't take 20 on Knowledge checks because there is no Try Again option.

Whoops. You are correct:

Try Again

No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

But then:

Check

Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

So on the one hand, the check represents what you know, and on the other hand, the better your result, the more you recall.

So I guess what I really think is that the take 10 mechanic is fine, it's the Knowledge skill that's a little broken.

 

[James McMurray]

So house rule that knowledge skills can't take 10 and all's well.

 

[Henry]

Personally, I'd be cool with Take 10 on Knowledge checks, if nothing else to represent "general knowledge" in what someone had covered. I especially like it for those "what would your character know?" sidebars in the WotC products. If someone has a +10 to knowledge, I'd expect them to be able to recall any of the DC 20 or less stuff in those knowledge sidebars, assuming they weren't doing it while dodging a crossbow bolt...

 

[evilbob]

So house rule that knowledge skills can't take 10 and all's well.

Well, fair enough... I guess the general concensus on my original question is that you can take 10 on any skill (as long as you are not threatened/distracted), so additional discussion is rapidly headed toward a house rule.

 

[Transit]

I'm sorry, but the fact that something is an opposed check does not mean that it involves distraction or threats. A disguise check is often opposed, but it's also a pretty clear example of being able to take 10.

Actually the fact that something is an opposed check does not ALWAYS mean that it involves distraction or threats. But in the case of hide/move silently it does.

Your example of Disguise is correct because the PC works on a disguise IN ADVANCE, and later on someone gets a chance to see through the disguise. The PC can work on the disguise while he's safe at home alone, without threat or distraction.

But someone trying to spot a PC as they are hiding, or hear them as they try to move silently is OBVIOUSLY a threat and a distraction.

There's no way for the PC to hide or move silently while he's safe at home alone, without threat or distraction, and then use that later on to sneak past a monster. He has to make the checks AT THE MOMENT that the monster has a chance to see or hear him.

Spot opposed by Hide. Listen opposed by Move Silently. One mistake and the PC is caught. That's threat and distraction right there.

No PC is going to be able to remain calm and do his "average" job of hiding and moving silently when he knows that if he fails, the monster he's hiding from will instantly attack him.

And if the monster trying to spot the PC isn't a threat, then no checks would be needed. The PC can just walk right past it in broad daylight, wave hello, smile and keep going.

Ultimately, it's up to the DM to decide what will and won't work with Take 10 in his own campaign. But in my opinion it's pretty obvious that whenever someone hides or moves silently, it's because the person they're hiding from is a threat. Therefore, no Take 10 allowed.

 

[Transit]

Except that's not correct about the Take 10.

See my post above.