TangleWING bag???

[Hakkenshi]

Hello all,
Just a curious little anecdote I'd like to share, and maybe get some feedback on. It happened a while ago, so it's not exactly a breaking story, but hey...

I was DMing a game in which the PCs had to climb an enormous tree. By enormous, I mean that its trunk was about the width of a modern city block.

Now, as the characters knew (from several eye-witnesses), a large Green Dragon (adult) had taken up residence in this tree. So while they were climbing (a task very similar to climbing a mountain), the Dragon swooped down and attacked them. During the course of combat, one player triumphantly announces that his next action is to throw a Tanglefoot Bag at the Dragon. Now, I know from reading the PHB that this thing is meant to entangle a Medium-sized creature. But apparently this player has a plan: he wants to strike the Dragon in the wing joint to make it plummet. I duly warn him that his character (being of slightly above average intelligence and having fought a couple Dragons before) deduces that such a powerful creature can't have its flight hindered by such an insignificant thing. The player insists on carrying out his plan.

And he rolls a natural 20 on his to-hit roll aiming for the wing joint. One other player rejoices with him, and the others just shake their heads uncaringly. I explain (after successfully rolling the Dragon's saving throw ) that the Dragon's wingbeat falters, but it keeps flying normally. The two celebrating players erupt in cries of dismay. The floodgates of argument open, drowning out the rest of the session.

I'm curious to know how other DMs might have ruled the matter.

 

[Bagpuss]

I had a player make three called shots to jump onto a dragon and throw vial soveriegn glue down its throat.

You tell me how to rule on that and I'll tell you how I would have ruled on your problem.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

I'm curious to know how other DMs might have ruled the matter.

Once you told him ooc it would not work, then it should not work.

However, I think you were wrong from the beginning.

The player wanted to try something dramatic and exciting- you shot it down.

*shrug* It may not be your play style and all, but considering how some of your players thought it was exciting - it seems some of your players may want it to be the play style.

Always go with what the players get excited about- sometimes it is hard to get them excited.

Heh, you know, if you had allowed it to work - you would have probably just created a fun anecdote for your group.

FD

 

[Bagpuss]

Yes, then unfortunately it becomes a 'standard' tactic to use a cheap easily available magic item to 'ground' a dragon taking away a huge tactical advantage for the beast an perhaps even killing it from the fall.

I think B.A.D.D. would be up in arms if he let that sort of trick work.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Yes, then unfortunately it becomes a 'standard' tactic to use a cheap easily available magic item to 'ground' a dragon taking away a huge tactical advantage for the beast an perhaps even killing it from the fall.

No, it doesn't. You just make it clear at the moment- that it is a cool idea, and you (the dm) will allow it to work this time, but it will not work in the future.

Besides- as word gets out about it, and if there are that many dragons in a campeign to worry about this tactic becoming regular, you just have them go fry the sources of the bags and have tactics against it.

I think B.A.D.D. would be up in arms if he let that sort of trick work.

Oh no. Please no. Don't have the Badd Boys be mad at me.. oh, how will I sleep tonight?



FD

 

[Hakkenshi]

See, I tend to go with Bagpuss on this one, considering that that's a fairly daunting precedent to set.

Once the player started arguing logic with me, though, it was all over--I can't really accept (even with MY suspension of disbelief) that a creature that defies the laws of physics for something so large to fly, that levels cities, would even blink at a bag of glue.

But I asked for opinions, and there they are

While we're on the subject, Bagpuss, I was wincing in sympathy when I read your first post. Don't think I wanna touch that one with a 10-foot pole, bud.

And FD, I can definitely see your point, but wouldn't you find such a tactic more anticlimactic than dramatic?

"Oh my gods! It's the Dragon!"
"Not to worry, old chum!"
*throws Tanglefoot Bag*
THWUMP as Dragon crashes to the ground several hundred feet below. Ehhh...

Not to mention how hard it would be to justify that it won't work in the future. Or the silliness of announcing to your players that "A band of furious Dragons incinerated the Tanglefoot Bag factory."

 

[Furn_Darkside]

And FD, I can definitely see your point, but wouldn't you find such a tactic more anticlimactic than dramatic?

"Oh my gods! It's the Dragon!"
"Not to worry, old chum!"
*throws Tanglefoot Bag*
THWUMP as Dragon crashes to the ground several hundred feet below. Ehhh...

If that your dm'ng, then *shrug*.

I would have had it crashed into the tree and/or one of the giant limbs- and then had a very po'd dragon climbing up at them.

Not to mention how hard it would be to justify that it won't work in the future.

No harder then to justify how it worked in the first place- or how a giant lizard is flying.

Or the silliness of announcing to your players that "A band of furious Dragons incinerated the Tanglefoot Bag factory."

Silly? Ok, then. I apologize for wasting your time.

FD

 

[Kugar]

There should be no doubt that the tactic should work.

The question is how well

1) Hard to hit - the natural 20 always is a bugger here. A significantly high AC (like the dragons + all the size adjustements from huge to the tiny sized joint) should keep this from being standard. Unless of course they always roll a 20 when they need it (this is another type of problem)

2) A flying Dragon should be able to glide with his wings glued into position.

3) The Dragon can either make the STR check to get free or nuke the glue with a breath weapon.

In conclusion I would have had the Dragon make a DC 10 reflex save to stay aloft, and give the players 2 rounds to prepare for the next fly-by, and used a breath weapon if the strength check failed.

 

[Tsyr]

I wouldn't have had it incapacitate the dragon exactly, but I would probably have had it... oh, I dunno... loose initative or something that round, to represent it struggling with the stuff.

I'm with the "I like excited players".

In a game I was in, we were fighting a human barbarian... he was really high level, we were all 2nd level. We had managed to get inside a little fort-like thing, but the guy was just waiting outside for us to come out.

We had a sorc 1/fighter 1 with a longbow... He made a called shot to the eye (DM has rules for called shots). DM imposed a BIG penalty, because A) very very very small target B) Distance C) Moving

True Strike is cast, player rolls... nat 20, with truestrike... Hit.

DM: Um... he is enraged at loosing an eye.

At that point, three different people took it upon themselves to explain that; no, an arrow does NOT just STOP when it hits an eye...

 

[Hakkenshi]

Furn, I meant no offense by that comment. It just struck me that having Dragons hunt down the source for Tanglefoot Bags is not something that should ever concern players. It doesn't seem exactly world-shattering, except possibly for the lives lost, if any.

Kugar, that is pretty much exactly what happened. I told the player the tactic worked, in that the Bag struck and burst, but that the Dragon flew on.

Tsyr, I understand the point of your anecdote, which I why I refuse to touch called shots in my games

It's the same sort of dangerous precedent. Eventually the archer protests that hitting the Great Wyrm in the eye should kill it, and you're stuck with either angry players or a wasted high-powered monster.