Targeting into Concealment

[Hypersmurf]

The intent of the "touch" part was to allow spells with a touch range to work with concealment, so you can try to cure your invisible buddy by touching him with 50% miss chance. It was not to turn phantasmal killer and charm person spells into ranged or melee touch attacks only when your opponent has concealment.

Do you have evidence of intent?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The intent of the "touch" part was to allow spells with a touch range to work with concealment, so you can try to cure your invisible buddy by touching him with 50% miss chance. It was not to turn phantasmal killer and charm person spells into ranged or melee touch attacks only when your opponent has concealment.

Touch spells already work with concealment. But, that section is the section on Targeted spells and therefore only discusses Targeted spells.

I explained what could be the possible meanings, so therefore how someone should rule it is not entirely clear. How I rule it, is that I require a melee touch attack to Target the creature (using 50% miss chance) and then require the casting. This means you need two hands free if the spell has material or somatic components (one to touch, one to cast). If you fail to touch, you simply do not cast. This also alleviates any question of "holding the charge" on a non-touch spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

How I rule it, is that I require a melee touch attack to Target the creature (using 50% miss chance) and then require the casting.

Melee touch attack as part of the Cast a Spell action, or as a separate melee attack (attack action, full attack action, etc)?

-Hyp.

 

[MarkB]

Melee touch attack as part of the Cast a Spell action, or as a separate melee attack (attack action, full attack action, etc)?

-Hyp.

One alternative (not an attractive one for most spellcasters) would be to Ready an action to cast the spell if the creature strikes you with a melee attack.

As a DM, I'd allow that to work, but if the attack deals damage, I'd require a Concentration check.

 

[irdeggman]

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

That doesn't state that for every targeted spell you have the ability to deliver the spell via touch. Many targeted spells have touch range, many have a specified range, some are personal.

See attached excel file of spells (made from the WotC lists) to see some examples of targeted spells and the various ranges.

The section under Targeting does not change the individual spell descriptions of delivery method nor does it change their ranges. Off hand it appears that some people are mixing the two. What I mean is that a spell can be a targeted spell and be a touch, personal, range (various ranges), etc. These are different properties of spells. As I read the targeting description if a spell has a range of other than touch or personnel and doesn't specify it is a ranged attack spell (in the text of the spell) then it requires "sight" by default. From the various spell descriptions I have read this is pretty consistent with the text of the spells themselves. Read them for yourselves and see if I am incorrect or have missed something in applying this logic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That doesn't state that for every targeted spell you have the ability to deliver the spell via touch. Many targeted spells have touch range, many have a specified range, some are personal.

That's right.

Let's say I'm blind, I'm holding your hand, and I want to cast Charm Person on you.

It's a spell that has a target or targets. I cast the spell on a creature or object (you), as defined by the spell itself - one humanoid creature. I can see or touch the target (you), and I specifically choose that target (you). You're within the range of the spell (close).

What am I failing to satisfy, as far as being able to get the spell off?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Melee touch attack as part of the Cast a Spell action, or as a separate melee attack (attack action, full attack action, etc)?

-Hyp.

As part of the cast a spell action. It's not a melee attack in its own right, so I'm not making it a separate action. I just think that requiring a touch attack and making it part of the cast a spell action is the best way to meet the allowance in the targeted spell description for "touch". Is there a better alternative?

 

[irdeggman]

That's right.

Let's say I'm blind, I'm holding your hand, and I want to cast Charm Person on you.

It's a spell that has a target or targets. I cast the spell on a creature or object (you), as defined by the spell itself - one humanoid creature. I can see or touch the target (you), and I specifically choose that target (you). You're within the range of the spell (close).

What am I failing to satisfy, as far as being able to get the spell off?

-Hyp.

I guess I didn't realize that all close spells could be both ranged and touch simultanously. My assumption was that if the spell was a touch spell it was so specified, otherwise it was not delivered by touch. Not all touch spells are "touch attack".

As for the specific case of Charm Person there are reasons the spell can't woirk in darkness.

Charm Person
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

This means that you must be communicating with the creature with the implication that the targeted creature knows who is communicating with it.

If the targeted creature is not affected by the darkness then it is possible for this to work since it could discern which creature is specifically "it's new friend".

Other ramifications of this interpretation.

You can cast a Charm Person spell and hold it unitl you can "deliver" the touch.

You can use Spectral Hand to deliver the Charm Person spell.

You can use your familiar to deliver the Charm Person spell.

Can this possibly be what was intended for this spell (and other like it)?

 

[TheGogmagog]

I disagree with Infiniti's interpretation of what the "target or targets" section means. I think if it's a target spell with range touch, you need to touch. If it's a target spell with range close you need to see the target. Not mixing them at all solves all the problems of special attack actions preceeding casting, or holding the charge. Simplest solution. Close range spells can't be delivered by touch.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Displacment

Strangely enough I seemed to have stumbled on the answer (at least for me) in the SRD description of the Displacement spell.

The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location.