Targeting into Concealment

[IcyCool]

I guess I didn't realize that all close spells could be both ranged and touch simultanously. My assumption was that if the spell was a touch spell it was so specified, otherwise it was not delivered by touch. Not all touch spells are "touch attack".

You are assuming that the section on targeting means that the spell is delivered by touch. That isn't stated in there anywhere. It says that if you are touching a creature, you can target it just as if you could see it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Strangely enough I seemed to have stumbled on the answer (at least for me) in the SRD description of the Displacement spell.

So, then, what's the answer? Under displacement total concealment, you can Target a creature normally. Under other total concealment, you can Target them abnormally, right (e.g. by touch)?

 

[werk]

I was going to say no, absolutely not, you have to target a creature...but "You must be able to see or touch the target," is pretty convincing for me.

I'd allow it, even as a technicality, just because I don't see it happening in play. For magic missile, how would a caster make a grapple attack, to touch and hold, before and while casting the spell?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Other ramifications of this interpretation.

You can cast a Charm Person spell and hold it unitl you can "deliver" the touch.

You can use Spectral Hand to deliver the Charm Person spell.

You can use your familiar to deliver the Charm Person spell.

None of those are true.

Charm Person has a range of 'Close' - let's say 35 feet for our hypothetical caster. If he's touching someone, are they within 35 feet?

You can hold the charge on a touch spell. The section on 'Touch spells in combat' defines a touch spell as a spell with a range of 'Touch'. Charm Person has a range of 'Close', not 'Touch'.

Spectral Hand can deliver "any touch range spell of 4th level or lower". Charm Person has a range of 'Close', not 'Touch'.

Your familiar can deliver touch spells. The section on 'Touch spells in combat' defines a touch spell as a spell with a range of 'Touch'. Charm Person has a range of 'Close', not 'Touch'.

We're not delivering Charm Person to a creature we're touching because the spell has a range of Touch; we're delivering Charm Person to a creature we're touching because the creature is within 35 feet, and because to target him, we must be able to see or touch him.

This means that you must be communicating with the creature with the implication that the targeted creature knows who is communicating with it.

Well, that brings up an interesting question.

Let's say the Wicked Witch of the West casts Charm Person on Dorothy, then gets called away on an urgent crystal ball call.

The Wicked Witch of the East saw this going on. She casts Disguise Self to look like the Wicked Witch of the West, and tells Dorothy to prop a bucket of water over the door to the bedroom.

The real Wicked Witch of the West has just finished dressing up as a flying monkey in order to play a trick on the Wizard of Oz, and comes back in. She sees Dorothy with the bucket, and tells her to put it down.

Under normal circumstances, Dorothy hates the WWotW, and would not obey any commands she gave. But under the Charm Person spell, Dorothy considers the WWotW to be her best friend.

Does the enchantment cause her to view the caster as her friend, or only someone she thinks is the caster?

Will she obey the flying monkey (who cast the Charm Person spell on her) who she doesn't recognise? Or will she obey the person she perceives to be the WWotW (who is, in fact, the WWotE, who didn't cast the Charm Person spell on her)?

The spell description constantly references you, which in D&D-speak means 'the caster'. The subject regards you as a trusted friend, you can give her orders, she perceives your actions favourably. Does this effect lapse just because you change shape? Does it apply to someone else (who is not 'you') just because they change shape?

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Your familiar can deliver touch spells. The section on 'Touch spells in combat' defines a touch spell as a spell with a range of 'Touch'. Charm Person has a range of 'Close', not 'Touch'.

I don't really see this.

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Dismiss a Spell: Dismissing an active spell is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

It talks about how to use range of touch spells in combat.

If you can use close spells as touch and the definition of touch spells is range touch then there are no rules for how to handle using a non range touch spell in combat.

If you can use close (or longer) range spells as touch in combat then they meet the criteria for being a range touch spell in this use.

 

[irdeggman]

You are assuming that the section on targeting means that the spell is delivered by touch. That isn't stated in there anywhere. It says that if you are touching a creature, you can target it just as if you could see it.

I was being facitious.

See my earlier post.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2886830&postcount=15

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you can use close spells as touch...

I'm not. I'm using a close spell on a creature who is within 25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels. I'm targetting a creature I can see or touch.

I'm not using a touch spell; I'm using a spell with a range of 'Close' on a creature I'm touching.

It's not a spell with a range of touch, therefore the rules that follow "Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells..." don't apply; it's not one of 'these spells'.

What are 'these spells'? Touch spells. If it's not a touch spell, then it can't be delivered by a familiar who can only deliver touch spells.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

What are 'these spells'? Touch spells. If it's not a touch spell, then it can't be delivered by a familiar who can only deliver touch spells.

-Hyp.

What is the difference between a spell that can be delivered by touch (close spells) or a spell that can only be delivered by touch (touch range spells)?

Can a wizard "hold" his charm person spell? You can with any spell delivered by touch.


{quote]Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.[/quote]

The last part about multiple targets would specifically apply to spells like cure light wounds, mass - where per the depvery method being specificed for a targeted spell you can choose to touch the targets as opposed to "seeing" them.

So where does the line get drawn?

If the section under targeting is read a different way (both readings are technically correct in English) -

You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.

it does not allow changing the range of the spell.

And if the range is read such that "ranged" spells are not "touch" spells it eliminates a whole lot of potential inconsisitencies in the rules - which leads me to believe that is the intent.

 

[MarkB]

What is the difference between a spell that can be delivered by touch (close spells) or a spell that can only be delivered by touch (touch range spells)?

Can a wizard "hold" his charm person spell? You can with any spell delivered by touch.

The definition of a "touch spell" is not "any spell that can be used against a creature you are touching". It is "a spell whose Range entry is listed as 'Touch'."

Those are the only type of spell whose charge you can hold, and which can be delivered by a familiar.

 

[Storyteller01]

I thought that was the rule for spells that required a touch attack, not for spells like Magic Missile (or a targeted Dispel Magic).

I think he means that you can't target an unseen target unless you can touch them.