Taxing the Players - making it work in game.

[Azgulor]

Forked from http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...you-dm-fully-detailed-city-like-cillamar.html

Taxes aren't about punishing the PCs or about trying to get them to become criminals (in most cases), they're just a part of the game world and how things would work. While a local lord whose lands and wealth were about to be destroyed by a rampaging band of ogres might look the other way on treasure brought in out of gratitude for the party saving his future finances, a city is financed by its taxes and tariffs. The local lord/council/whatever is going to want their share. Even if they wouldn't press for it, there are other people in the administration who probably would. That's human nature. Saying those taxes are a punishment is like saying that merchants will not pay full market value for a stack of used swords is punishment. (It's not. The merchant has to make a profit from the sale, has to factor his costs for cleaning up the weapons and storing them, and there's the opportunity cost of that money he pays the party not being available for other things until the swords sell. It's just simplified economics.)


In addition, I see taxes and the like as part of how the world's story builds around the party. If a party picks a single city as a home base, they pay tons of taxes there over time. (Face it, adventurers are filthy, stinking rich if they survive.) That city will have more funds for building roads and walls and docks and a bigger house for the local lord. This may cause the city to grow or attract crime or bring in new trade or any number of other things. Additionally, the people in power and in the bureaucracy will know who the PCs are and will end up spreading the word. Face it, when a group of nobodies brings in a chest full of jewelry and gold, people talk about it. Over time, this provide great fodder for drawing the PCs into society events, or having someone try to scam/rob them, or letting the local church look for donations for a project, or simply just spreading the PCs name around for when someone needs to hire adventurers for something.


Finally, taxes can be used as a great plot hook. The local lord suddenly announces a one-time tax on all owned magic items. Is he trying to build up funds for a war that's coming? Is he hoping to round up a few of those magic items from people without ready cash to pay? Is there something evil going on? Investigating these changes can create a whole series of adventures. (And the taxes don't have to be on the PCs. Why is the kingdom next door jacking up its taxes?)

Taxes can also create good roleplaying. PCs have to negotiate with local lords about the goods they pulled out of the dungeon on the lord's lands. But what if they have a writ from the king? (Like one that lets you ignore tolls in the kingdom when traveling.) Who did they have to help/bribe/kill to get that writ? Can the writ be improved over time? If they don't have the writ, how much taxes do they pay to their home city vs. the king vs. the lord whose lands it is.



Okay, there's a fourth answer. I AM old school. Sometimes, taxes are a great way of removing some wealth from the PCs.

The following post makes a very plausible case for local governments wanting to collect taxes from PCs. Personally, I haven't really gone down the road of taxing wandering adventures since my 1E days. The primary reasons for abandoning it were the following:

1. While the government may want to tax the players, they may lack the power to do so. Sure, armed resistance results in outlaw PCs, but the city guardsmen the PCs just blew through are likely just as dead. It becomes a matter of risk/reward: is it worth overtly "taking their share" or "fleecing" it in a more subtle matter through elevated prices, etc.?

2. In-game knowledge vs. meta-game knowledge. Unless the PCs are marching in with sacks of coin on their back, just how in the hell does the government know the party is rich? And please don't go down the divination road, I'm looking for an answer that can apply at the village, town, city, or metropolis level.

3. What tax(es) can legitimately be levied? Oh, I realize the government can come up with whatever they like, but one-offs/exceptions require a specific plan-of-attack versus an everyday or seasonal tax. Also, the idea of a "magic item tax" is pure BS (See point #2, above).

I'm all for taxation if there are in-game justifications for it. But I've seen numerous groups that are cool with the concept that they blew their money on ales-n-whores go from town heroes to fugitives-at-large once the government starts screwing with them. Especially, if they just saved said community's/government's bacon.

So how have GMs handled this in-game without resorting to the equivalent of omniscient tax collectors that have the resources to take on a group of PCs yet work for governments that lack the skill/resources to protect its citizenry?

And again, a magically-equipped equivalent to the IRS is not, IMO, a viable answer.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Taxes are an entirely reasonable simulation and reflection of the game world. They are realistic and beyond reproach as a means of authentically removing wealth from the PCs and ensuring that the wealth gained from monsters and adventuring finds its way into the local economy.

Sure. I got no problem with that as a statement of fact.

That said, my players play D&D once a week to get away from earthly cares and to have FUN. I can't even talk one of my players into playing an alien invasion set in present day earth using D20 Modern/Future rules because it does not deliver the escapism he wants. It's "too real for him", he says.

Short of roleplaying "character divorce" or -- my fave -- the Child Custody Skill Challenge, I can think of no single activity that is conceivably LESS fun for players and MORE a reminder of their earhtly cares than trying to simulate the imposition of taxes in game.

No way, no how. Not ever. YMMV - but this is just no damned fun at all.

 

[Dausuul]

A lot depends on the game world.

In settings like Ptolus which have "institutional adventuring" - that is, adventurers are relatively common and dungeon-crawling is a recognized profession - one could expect some system of taxation to exist. The tax might be levied at a checkpoint on adventurers coming out of known dungeons or dangerous wilderness areas, or it might take the form of extravagant sales taxes on adventuring goods.

In fact, the latter might be a good explanation for why equipment prices in the PHB are so ludicrously (by real-world medieval standards) high. This would also have the advantage of making the tax more or less invisible to adventurers, who are notorious troublemakers, and to players, who as Steel Wind says are probably not much interested in filling out Ye Olde Forme MXC*.

On the other hand, in a setting where adventurers are rare and heroic, they are much less likely to be taxed in any formal way, simply because there's no precedent that would have led to such a tax being imposed. The PCs might have to deal with a greedy noble imposing an ad hoc tax to get his hands on their loot, or pleas from impoverished communities for aid, but there isn't going to be some sort of "ten percent off the top" law on the books.

Of course, there is one advantage to imposing taxes in-game; it gives the players a chance to fireball the tax collector.

[SIZE=-2]*For those not familiar with Roman numerals, MXC means one thousand and forty.[/SIZE]

 

[Umbran]

You don't need omniscient tax collectors to notice that the PCs are hauling in wads of cash. Generally speaking, when they roll into town, PCs spend cash like water.

Remember that you aren't usually talking about huge modern communities where individuals are basically anonymous. We are probably talking about places with low population densities, where gossip-mongering is a national sport! Word will get around quickly enough if they don't live frugally.

I typically use an "upkeep" mechanic. In places with taxes, I'd offer the players a choice - pay a higher upkeep, or risk a potential visit from the tax-collectors, their choice.

 

[LostSoul]

If I were to introduce taxes I would be sure to make it about the NPCs who are collecting the taxes and not some invisible government bureaucracy.

(Unless I was playing up the idea of bureaucracy: ghostly tax-collectors still gathering taxes, tormented by their unending service but unable to break their contracts, dumping the collected taxes into a giant vault and letting the gold rot there.)

 

[amerigoV]

I don't mind it as a plot device*, but I would not want to fuss with it as a DM or player. Especially after I see what I pay in taxes in RL.

* I think the old 1e Lankhmar book had "tax day" as a random event. That would be a fun city side adventure to have to "hide" your loot as lower level PCs.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

1. While the government may want to tax the players, they may lack the power to do so. Sure, armed resistance results in outlaw PCs, but the city guardsmen the PCs just blew through are likely just as dead. It becomes a matter of risk/reward: is it worth overtly "taking their share" or "fleecing" it in a more subtle matter through elevated prices, etc.?

Outlaw PCs can be a problem, but if the players want to go that way, they should not be surprised of consequences:

• There may be prohibitions on citizens doign business with the PCs,
• The common low-level guards may have been blown through, but in a D&D world it is unlikely the lord of the region does not have access to higher level resources as well.
• there may be a bounty may be placed on their heads attracting other adventurers looking to make a buck.

2. In-game knowledge vs. meta-game knowledge. Unless the PCs are marching in with sacks of coin on their back, just how in the hell does the government know the party is rich? And please don't go down the divination road, I'm looking for an answer that can apply at the village, town, city, or metropolis level.

The simplest answer for this is a common, official currency. Sure, you may have hauled the ancient wizards horde from his lost tower, but those coins you found can't be spent until they are exchanged for "real" currency, at which time the amount is recorded and taxes levied. Same can apply to exchange of gems or magic items - the merchants are required to report their transactions. Sure there will be an underground economy willing to trade directly in goods or pure metal coinage, but they won't pay as well or will have higer costs because of the risks.

3. What tax(es) can legitimately be levied? Oh, I realize the government can come up with whatever they like, but one-offs/exceptions require a specific plan-of-attack versus an everyday or seasonal tax. Also, the idea of a "magic item tax" is pure BS (See point #2, above).

See point #2 above.

I'm all for taxation if there are in-game justifications for it. But I've seen numerous groups that are cool with the concept that they blew their money on ales-n-whores go from town heroes to fugitives-at-large once the government starts screwing with them. Especially, if they just saved said community's/government's bacon.

Well, if your players are uninterested in taxes to the point of doing this, then you are either better off staying away from the idea, or be willing to have fun playing out the PCs as fugitives. It is all about your game and your players at that point. Remember that if your local government is nothing but low-level bureaucrats, the PCs can in theory just take over completely if their power level is high enough, and maybe they will choose to if the government starts to "screw with them."

 

[Azgulor]

You don't need omniscient tax collectors to notice that the PCs are hauling in wads of cash. Generally speaking, when they roll into town, PCs spend cash like water.

Remember that you aren't usually talking about huge modern communities where individuals are basically anonymous. We are probably talking about places with low population densities, where gossip-mongering is a national sport! Word will get around quickly enough if they don't live frugally.

I typically use an "upkeep" mechanic. In places with taxes, I'd offer the players a choice - pay a higher upkeep, or risk a potential visit from the tax-collectors, their choice.

Agreed. For me the issue is that while the PCs are spending tons of cash, there's no way for the local tax collector to know how deep the pockets run.

I use an upkeep/cost-of-living mechanic as well. I'm also enamored with FantasyCraft's Prudence & Panache mechanics.

Between cost-of-living/upkeep & high-living/ale-n-whores, depleting PC funds usually isn't an issue. It's just been so long since I've even considered the tax angle that I was curious if/how people handled it these days.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Taxes for the game world:
Street Taxes - call them sales taxes, these are the day-to-day taxes that a person pays out of pocket. They are part of the cost of living. 10% percent of out-of-pocket go to street taxes.

Guild Taxes - If players do not have a deal with local guilds they may get this one. This can get ugly, this is why groups should have contracts and be incorprated, with "shares" going to these groups. These groups seem to demand fees and will seek legal action against players. 20% or 2% per guild.

• Adventure Guild
• Merchant Guild
• Thievies Guild
• Teamsters
• Dwarven Heritage Guild
• Etc.

Church Taxes - based on campaign but can be as high as 30%

City, State and Country Taxes - 20%

Basicly players should be only taking home 20% of value of goods.

 

[Pyrex]

If it's hard to tax the PC's, don't. Just tax everyone the PC's do business with.

Start having shopkeepers complain about the new 20% tax on transactions over 500gp and let them pass the tax on to the PC's that way. The PC's might risk alienating the city guard or even the crown; but they aren't going to mess with the guy(s) who buys all those +1 longswords and sells them back healing potions.