Taxing the Players - making it work in game.

You don't need omniscient tax collectors to notice that the PCs are hauling in wads of cash. Generally speaking, when they roll into town, PCs spend cash like water.

Remember that you aren't usually talking about huge modern communities where individuals are basically anonymous. We are probably talking about places with low population densities, where gossip-mongering is a national sport! Word will get around quickly enough if they don't live frugally.

Given the way power scales in D&D, a group of PCs of any significant level should be regarded less as a group of four to five vagabonds and more as a small mercenary army. When that kind of force rolls into town, loaded down with plunder and ready to spend, what's a small-town mayor to do? Try to enforce a direct tax on a bunch of trigger-happy desperadoes packing enough firepower to level half the town? Or welcome them to town with smiles and parades, sell them every luxury the town has to offer at a 500% markup, and then tax the merchants doing the selling?

I think the latter makes a lot more sense, and as I said above, there's a good argument to be made that it's already factored into Player's Handbook prices.
 
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3. What tax(es) can legitimately be levied?

The taxes that are easiest to calculate should be the first to be levied.

Property taxes are a good place to start. Rather than based off of a calculated "value" (like they are in the US), it would be simple to just tax landowners on a $/area basis. Farmers, innkeepers, and shopkeepers would then pad their prices to cover this tax. If the PCs happen to own land, they would have to pay the tax once a year.

Taxes for travelling can be levied easily if the borders of the land are guarded. A flat amount paid every time a traveller entered of left the kingdom could easily be levied by the guards. Citizens could alternately apply for a passport that would allow unlimited travel in and out for a flat rate.

Tariffs could be levied on imported and exported goods. Tariffs can be specific to certain types of goods and/or only high quantities to make things simpler. Tariffs will rarely affect PCs unless they get involved in trade (or more likely - smuggling).

Taxing through religion (i.e. required offerings and/or tithing) could also be prominent. Refusing to donate to the local church might not attract the attention of the law, but would cause stiff social penalties. Local businesses and people would shun any adventurers who flaunt wealth but don't donate to the church. Taxing of this type could be based on time spent in a town, or based on the amount of help the party receives from the local church. Normally the exact amount will not be specified by the church, but it's a safe bet that all the locals will know if the party is stingy or generous and treat them accordingly.

Taxes can also be levied for specific services. For example, does the kingdom provide infrastructure for messengers (i.e. mail)? If so, all messengers would have to be licensed by the government and would require a fee on a per service basis. The same system can be used for waste disposal, public transportation, or education services. In many situations the "fee" may also require you to board a worker for a certain amount of time.
 

Wow, I've never had one of my posts spin off into it's own thread before. This is kind of fun.


First let me say that I think many of the arguments against the taxing of PCs I've seen in other threads and in other places are about the reasoning behind it or the in-game logic or any of that, they're really arguments about how some people just don't want to deal with taxes in game. Maybe it's too much paperwork, maybe you resent a real world responsibility entering the game. However, that's how you want to play. For those who just don't want taxes in your game, arguing against how taxes could work with how you're opposed to taxes is going to derail the discussion. Some people want more realistic weapons, or more historically accurate armor, or a more realistic economy. Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't make it wrong, just a different style of play.


1. While the government may want to tax the players, they may lack the power to do so. Sure, armed resistance results in outlaw PCs, but the city guardsmen the PCs just blew through are likely just as dead.

There have been numerous articles and posts related to RPGs over the years about what happens when the PCs are more powerful than the government. With the power curve in games like D&D, sooner or later it takes an army to stop the PCs, or another group of PCs. A lot of what's been said boils down to cultural controls.

In short form, pretty much every local lord has the strength of arms to kill the king's tax collector. Yet while there have been cases of people refusing to pay taxes in history and things coming to a head with arrest or outright war, most people, even well armed ones, still pay their taxes. The penalty of being removed from society and becoming an outlaw simply outweighs the cost of taxes in most cases.

And if your PCs go the other way with things, choosing to ignore all laws because they are too powerful to arrest, then they should expect every city they visit to respond by locking the gates and marshaling the army to keep the PCs out. (Not to mention that the PCs now become an adventure threat for someone else to track down and deal with.)



2. In-game knowledge vs. meta-game knowledge. Unless the PCs are marching in with sacks of coin on their back, just how in the hell does the government know the party is rich? And please don't go down the divination road, I'm looking for an answer that can apply at the village, town, city, or metropolis level.

Unless the PCs have a spare portable hole or some really big bags of holding, when they come back with that treasure trove they are carrying sacks of valuable items that tend to clink together. Frankly, the small children of the farms they pass know they've just hit it rich, never mind the trained professionals like tax men and pickpockets.

Even if the PCs hide their treasure, the typical party heads for town to convert their oddly shaped items into portable gold, spend the money they've acquired on new goodies, and then head down to the tavern for drinks. People see this money get spread around and that word reaches other ears. There's also bragging by the adventurers of their glorious deeds... whether it's the PCs themselves, their henchmen, or word coming from the people they just saved from the evil. Well known heroes become well known because their story is spread.

To put it into a real world analogy, American history had periods of time where there were mineral rushes in areas. There would be towns that catered to the miners. When a miner came in with gold or silver and had money to spend, people quickly knew. Merchants raised their prices, those looking to get a piece of the money sought out the miner, and people talked about it all because it was something interesting happens.

Now imagine that instead of just finding some shiny rocks in a river, the guy walking into town has just killed a fantastic monster and taken its treasure. You think people are going to talk more or less?

Now, I have seen players who were good at hiding what they'd recovered because they were afraid of getting robbed. Someone like that may just take all the necessary steps to avoid taxation since no one knows they've got anything worth taxing. This breaks down if the PCs have a home base because the money they spend on land, a house, furniture, food, and luxury items will show that they've got wealth to burn, which people will eventually notice.


3. What tax(es) can legitimately be levied? Oh, I realize the government can come up with whatever they like, but one-offs/exceptions require a specific plan-of-attack versus an everyday or seasonal tax. Also, the idea of a "magic item tax" is pure BS (See point #2, above).

Historically, taxes can be levied on pretty much anything someone can think of. These taxes ranged from the mundane to the ridiculous. Got married? Had a kid? Your horse gave birth too? There's taxes for each of those. People got taxes for crossing bridges, for using the mill to grind flour, for riding in carriages, for owning certain things, for doing certain activities, and even such things as being of a particular nationality or religious belief. During the time of Peter the Great, any Russian man who wore a beard was required to pay a special tax.
I've read about a tax placed on tattoos. Human beings are very creative in coming up with new taxes.

Keep in mind that while many modern countries use a tax model based off of income, meaning you pay a percentage of what you earn, this is not how all taxes are now or have previously been modeled.

Taxes are often levied based on what you are worth. You own a house on an acre of land? 50 gold, please. Oh, it has a tower with an alchemy lab in it? That counts as business tools, so it's 100 gold. You own six horses, two of them war trained? Another 40 gold. You have some nice furniture here. That's 20 gold more. You'll pay the same again next year. (These taxes can be the most dangerous to the poor farmer because they have to pay X coins per acre and Y coins per building whether the crop yield is good or bad. In a bad year, paying the taxes can mean starvation.)

The idea of a magic item tax is not BS. People were taxed because they owned certain tools, so why not magic items? Leaders covet magic items, so taxing them makes sense: It brings in income, it helps keep track of who has the items, and sometimes you can seize the item when the person doesn't pay their taxes.

Taxes can also be levied for a particular purpose that the lord has. One historical example is to levy an immediate tax so that a lord can finance or equip an army. This could be a tax on the head of every citizen, a tax for just property owners, or even a tax that has to be paid by any able bodied man to keep their name out of the pool when conscription rolls around.

Remember, most modern American and European taxes are based on an idea of being "fair". They're levied for a purpose, whether that's an income tax to finance the government or a tax on alcohol or cigarettes designed to keep people from using them. Historically, the basic "fairness" of taxes was entirely dependent on who was currently running the country and what their laws would allow people to get away with.

(I put "fair" in quotes because I realize that many modern taxes can be argued as fair or unfair depending on your perspective. The idea I'm expressing is that they're supposed to be "fair", not to start a debate on if they actually are "fair".)


I'm all for taxation if there are in-game justifications for it. But I've seen numerous groups that are cool with the concept that they blew their money on ales-n-whores go from town heroes to fugitives-at-large once the government starts screwing with them. Especially, if they just saved said community's/government's bacon.

But this is a whole other situation. That's a group of players who are greatly opposed to having taxes in the game. Just like a group that hates detailed weapon rules or who thinks keeping track of material components for spells is extremely lame, you shouldn't force the taxes on them. Just either ignore the PCs involvement in that part of the economy or assume their taxes are part of why the prices they pay for goods are so high.

Oh, and paying taxes is not the government "screwing with them." Taxes are just a way of expressing a more realistic economy. If they're the kind of players who think that a 10' pole costing more than a 10' ladder (which is made from two 10' poles) because the pole is adventuring gear and so should be more expensive, then they really don't need to delve into things like economy or taxes.


And again, a magically-equipped equivalent to the IRS is not, IMO, a viable answer.

But it wouldn't be a magically equipped equivalent of the IRS. It would be either adventurers or an army who solved the tax problems.

When a king can't get a lord or landowner to pay taxes and the "polite" requests have failed, he sends troops to seize the land and possessions of the debtor and probably throw that fellow in jail (or just hang him). If he's too powerful for an army, or an army isn't available, the king can hire mercenaries (aka adventurers) to go deal with the rebel lord who has turned up his nose at the law and refused his king. It worked historically and it can work in the game.

Face it, typical adventurers can be tax collectors. If the king wants you to evict some evil, nasty, not paying taxes monsters from an area of land so that nice, upright, tax paying citizens can farm it and expand the kingdom, that's all about increasing the taxes in the king's coffers.



Sorry, that turned out longer than I'd intended. The comparisons between game world "economy" and the real world is a passion of mine.
 

Taxes opens up a can of worms.

If you try to tax the PCs, they may go outlaw.

It seems Thornir doesn't mind that outcome.

The problem I have with that (and somebody will have a problem that I have a problem with that) is that it greatly changes the game.

Some would say that's not the GM's business, but by adding the taxaxtion element, you are manipulating the game.

So if the current party is a group of nice adventurers who live in town and do nice deeds, if you start taxing them, you may be able to drive them to outlawism (and they may even draw inspiration from Robin Hood).

So a part of this impact of adding taxes, is that as a GM, you must accept that you have the ability to manipulate the players and the campaign, thus it is not "wholly' the players choice on what happens next.

Money and economics are never fully modeled in an RPG. To do so would require mapping the history of every item and coin in the game, so you could manage supply and demand. Money just kind of appears as die rolls for NPCs, and treasure hordes hauled in by PCs. What impact there is, is kind of fudged, not modeled.

So, to what end do you hope to achieve with adding taxation (or any kind of money thing) to the game? Odds are good, the real intent is to reduce the amount of money the PCs are carrying. The simplest way to do that is to offer them opportunities to spend it on more expensive things. Land, titles, businesses and have each of those pay out in intervals is one such solution.

As Dasuul said, you can assume a sales tax is already levied and reflected in the prices of things, rather than have a tax man specifically.

A question I would ponder, is how do you think the tax man would know what to collect? How does he know how many swords the weapon shop sold? A case can be made at the money changer, that could be government run, but regular shops would require a ton of paper work, that in a medieval society would be less likely (though we all know D&D society is more advanced that reality).
 

A question I would ponder, is how do you think the tax man would know what to collect? How does he know how many swords the weapon shop sold? A case can be made at the money changer, that could be government run, but regular shops would require a ton of paper work, that in a medieval society would be less likely (though we all know D&D society is more advanced that reality).

This is why taxes that were based on accumulated wealth or flat taxes based on ownership/use were popular at times in history before extensive paperwork was really possible. (Hard to do tax forms when the percentage of the population who can read is very low.)

There is a tax system that basically works by the government looking at what you owned last year, what you owned this year, and taxing you on the difference. It was even used in America not too long ago. (There was a movie I watched with a whole routine where people are moving new furniture and other purchases to the houses of friends before the tax man came to assess them.)

There are also numerous tax systems based on just taxing based on what you have available to you. If you have X acres, you pay Y taxes. If you have a shop and license to be a sword maker, you pay Z taxes.


Of course, if you want to get into some really fun tax situations without paperwork, imagine a situation where you had to meet with the tax man every so often in his office, where you stood in a permanent zone of truth to answer questions about the taxes you owed. That could be a really interesting society. (The tax man would be despised because they could sometimes slip in other questions like whether you had done anything illegal or were cheating on your wife....)
 

Taxes opens up a can of worms.

If you try to tax the PCs, they may go outlaw.

It seems Thornir doesn't mind that outcome.

The problem I have with that (and somebody will have a problem that I have a problem with that) is that it greatly changes the game.
I would not say that I mind that outcome - it all depends upon the game and the players. I could have some fun running a group that decides to go outlaw. We could go all dark and nasty (which would probably only be fun for a little while for me), or play it light and heroic as they become a fantasy "A-Team" on the run from the legal authorities while helping others.

Overall I agree that taxes opens up a can of worms. Some players enjoy the realism of worrying about things like maintaining a home-base and becoming immersed in a full society. Those players are probably more accepting of a taxation system, because it won't be seen as punitive, but just another aspect of the game world.

Other players enjoy kicking-butt, taking names and gaining fame and fortune while ignoring the "real world" of the game. They are more likely to see a GM setting taxes as some way of nerfing them and taking their stuff and will probably protest and possible derail the game.


Out of curiosity, for those who played (or still play) AD&D, how many DMs enforced the titheing for Paladins and I think Clerics as well? It was a written rule, but it was essentially a tax on specific classes. In my expereince , it was generally ignored as an annoying, punitive rule against those classes.
 

I think some people in this thread are coming from different places on some fundamental questions about the game world. Most of those questions boil down to how exceptional the PCs and their activities are.

  • Adventuring: Profession or Heroism? If adventuring is an established profession, then there may well be established taxes on the activity. If not, then any taxation will be imposed ad hoc by rulers eager for a cut of the PCs' cash.
  • Magic Items: Commodity or Mystery? If magic items are a commodity like any other, with a small but functioning network of merchants trading in them, then taxing them is feasible. If magic items are not generally traded on any kind of market--too little supply, too little demand, or the items themselves punish those who presume to buy and sell them--then taxing them is, as Azgulor says, BS.
  • Player Characters Versus Authorities: Who Wins? Wise rulers tread carefully around powerful vassals. If the PCs are powerful enough to pose a serious threat to the authorities--and they often are--then they are certainly powerful enough to warrant special treatment. The authorities may still seek to tax them, but it will be a lot more negotiation than confiscation. Expect the tax to be dressed up with appeals to the PCs' patriotism, charity, egotism, desire for special legal perks, or whatever else can get them to part with their gold pieces and not raise hell.
Bear in mind that adventurers aren't like regular people, even regular nobles. Most player characters are rootless wanderers who choose of their own free will to face dangers that any sane person would run away from screaming. They're three-quarters of the way to being bandits already... and having a high-level group of adventurers go rogue in his or her territory is a monarch's worst nightmare. As such, they're best treated with kid gloves.
 
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If the simple concept of (reasonable) taxes makes your players go outlaw, they were probably outlaws to begin with, and were just pretending to do good as long as it was profitable.

When I see it, it's a trait of the player, that they don't like being pushed around, especially in an rpg. So they over-react.

So if you've got a party of good guys, it's possible that if a "good" NPC (good as in not obviously a bad guy) tries to tax him, someone will go berserk and throw a tea party.

It's the same "I kneel to no man" nonsense some players pull when their PCs meet the king for the first time and they're not in trouble. it basically takes the encounter from "I was going to grant you a title and a new sword, but now you're going to jail for being stupid" which then leads to the escape, which leads to outlawism.

Over the years, I've seen my share of players, and many of them have trigger points that can careen a game down avenues you didn't want to go down.

In all of this, I'm not saying it's wrong for the party to decide to become outlaws if that's what they want to do.

What I'm saying is, certain DM choices and presentation can intentionally or unintentionally change the status quo.

I'm certain GM's don't mind things changing. But I suspect it would be desire for most of them to not have their campaign thrown out of whack unexpectedly because of something they mishandled.
 

If the simple concept of (reasonable) taxes makes your players go outlaw, they were probably outlaws to begin with, and were just pretending to do good as long as it was profitable.

The problem area is that parenthetical; what's "reasonable" for taxes will vary based on PC and player. I know when a weaselly local lord tried to set up the PCs in my game for some taxes, the PCs basically said (along with a Diplomacy roll to sweeten it up):

"Look, you want to force us to pay this amount to live here? Fine, we'll pay, and then we'll move, and you can deal with the Scarlet Brotherhood assassins, the werewolves, the cursed artifact that turns all the villagers into monsters if it's trifled with, the demon-haunted city, the occasional rampaging giant, the drow, and whatever else is next. You pay us nothing to face those risks, we make your lands safer just by being here and scaring some threats away, and we use our powers to help take care of your people, all free of charge. If you have a problem with that, we will take our size-changing tower and move on."

They paid a nominal amount that basically got added on to their abstract cost of living, and then negotiated tax dispensations the next time the lord or his feudal superiors needed their assistance.
 

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