Taxing the Players - making it work in game.
- Thread starter Azgulor
- Start date
MonkeyDragon
Explorer
I think that the problem that some of my (and possibly some other) players would have is not the idea of a world that involves taxes and the presence of such laws. It would be the ADDITION of such laws to the game.
They would not think "Here is an interesting bit of flavor added to the world to make it more realistic, and possibly provide plothooks." They would think "The DM has added an arbitrary system to take away our loot! Boo, hiss!"
I actually did add taxes to the campaign that I just started, and did it in the form of allowing the players to choose if they wanted to be official citizens of their home countries.
Citizenship comes with rights and responsibilities. On the plus side, PCs who are citizens will have a bit of an advantage when dealing with officials, are viewed as being more trustworthy, have an easier time owning property and might have access to government resources, such as an embassy. The responsibilities are basically that the government can call on its citizens for service (in the army, for example). And, of course, taxes.
Taxes are 10gp x level per year, first year due at character creation. For most mid to high level characters, a year's taxes are a pretty minor cost, so it doesn't turn into a major money decision. It's almost like allowing the players to purchase plot hooks and roleplaying advantages.
The game hasn't been going long enough to see any effects, but I'm anticipating good things. And I think it provides the balance that I like between having the PCs being a part of a society with laws and policy, and still not forcing them to engage in the minutae of said society.
They would not think "Here is an interesting bit of flavor added to the world to make it more realistic, and possibly provide plothooks." They would think "The DM has added an arbitrary system to take away our loot! Boo, hiss!"
I actually did add taxes to the campaign that I just started, and did it in the form of allowing the players to choose if they wanted to be official citizens of their home countries.
Citizenship comes with rights and responsibilities. On the plus side, PCs who are citizens will have a bit of an advantage when dealing with officials, are viewed as being more trustworthy, have an easier time owning property and might have access to government resources, such as an embassy. The responsibilities are basically that the government can call on its citizens for service (in the army, for example). And, of course, taxes.
Taxes are 10gp x level per year, first year due at character creation. For most mid to high level characters, a year's taxes are a pretty minor cost, so it doesn't turn into a major money decision. It's almost like allowing the players to purchase plot hooks and roleplaying advantages.
The game hasn't been going long enough to see any effects, but I'm anticipating good things. And I think it provides the balance that I like between having the PCs being a part of a society with laws and policy, and still not forcing them to engage in the minutae of said society.
The Shaman
First Post
With Traveller I assume the presence of a VAT, so the taxes are folded into the prices of everything. It's an invisible hand.
Flashing Blades contains rules for taxes and tithes, and they do a great job of capturing the flavor of the period. (Hint: it's good to be a titled noble or a clergyman in 17th century France.)
For Dungeons and Dragons? I rarely bother with taxes, but everyone from the guard on the gate to the governor of the town to the local prince has a hand out for a bribe. If you want the machine to work for you, you gotta grease the gears.
Flashing Blades contains rules for taxes and tithes, and they do a great job of capturing the flavor of the period. (Hint: it's good to be a titled noble or a clergyman in 17th century France.)
For Dungeons and Dragons? I rarely bother with taxes, but everyone from the guard on the gate to the governor of the town to the local prince has a hand out for a bribe. If you want the machine to work for you, you gotta grease the gears.
Mishihari Lord
First Post
I don't see a compelling reason for including PC taxes in my world. Income taxes? This isn't the modern world where everyone has to keep financial records. There's no way of proving how much Joe the Blacksmith made, much less a wandering adventurer. I see most of the societies being funded by income taxes and maybe tariffs. Unless the PCs settle down in one spot or transport bulk goods it's not going to affect them.
I've seen a lot of stuff about taxes here addressing several major issues:
Knowledge of PC wealth
PCs going Outlaw
PCs vs. Law Enforcement
Realism
I'm really surprised that, at least in my reading, no one has mentioned one of the big reasons why you might not want to worry about adventuring PCs paying their "fair share" of the taxes.
If I am a PC, even a Lawful Good one, and I am expected to pay taxes on the treasure that I acquired while stopping a Drow Vampire Exarch of Orcus from invading this dimension and annihilating your town, I am ALSO going to expect to be PAID for stopping a Drow Vampire Exarch of Orcus.
I mean, if you are collecting taxes, then it is quite reasonable for your citizenry to expect you to protect them from invasion. This has, historically, been one of the sore points of tax collection. People who suffered the depradations of bandits, brigands, raiders, and invaders were often the people who complained, or even revolted, about taxes.
So, if you are collecting taxes, then YOU had better have forces equipped to deal with the undead invasion from another dimension. That would mean that the adventure consisted of watching the duke's army foil the invasion.
Oh, wait. The Duke can't stop the invasion of Undead? Is he going to PAY us to rescue the town? Well, if we are paid appropriately (what's the going rate for stopping a demonic incursion?), then I don't suppose I really have any problem with paying some taxes on my income.
Oh, he wants us to volunteer to face death and destruction? Oh, so we are doing this for free, AND the duke levies a tax on anything of value we happen to find on the people trying to kill us? Why exactly are we protecting this guy's right to rule?
While I am sure that you can find real life examples of people who call the volunteer fire department when their house is on fire, and then try to bill the volunteer fire department for the water damage their house sustained, I assure you that such people are @$$hats.
If the local lord is such an @$$hat, I think either your players are going to realize that you want to take money away from them and acquiese, or their characters might seriously consider deposing such a ruler.
The ruler is unable to protect his people, unwilling to pay people to do so, and intent on financially penalizing anyone willing to do so for no pay. He's automatically NOT a good ruler, and his actions have jeopardized his people.
Now, if you want PCs to pay taxes on goods, I would assume those are already factored into the prices in the rule books. If they want to own land, raise crops, sell goods, provide services, those things are all not covered in the books, and totally up to your group ANYWAY.
Knowledge of PC wealth
PCs going Outlaw
PCs vs. Law Enforcement
Realism
I'm really surprised that, at least in my reading, no one has mentioned one of the big reasons why you might not want to worry about adventuring PCs paying their "fair share" of the taxes.
If I am a PC, even a Lawful Good one, and I am expected to pay taxes on the treasure that I acquired while stopping a Drow Vampire Exarch of Orcus from invading this dimension and annihilating your town, I am ALSO going to expect to be PAID for stopping a Drow Vampire Exarch of Orcus.
I mean, if you are collecting taxes, then it is quite reasonable for your citizenry to expect you to protect them from invasion. This has, historically, been one of the sore points of tax collection. People who suffered the depradations of bandits, brigands, raiders, and invaders were often the people who complained, or even revolted, about taxes.
So, if you are collecting taxes, then YOU had better have forces equipped to deal with the undead invasion from another dimension. That would mean that the adventure consisted of watching the duke's army foil the invasion.
Oh, wait. The Duke can't stop the invasion of Undead? Is he going to PAY us to rescue the town? Well, if we are paid appropriately (what's the going rate for stopping a demonic incursion?), then I don't suppose I really have any problem with paying some taxes on my income.
Oh, he wants us to volunteer to face death and destruction? Oh, so we are doing this for free, AND the duke levies a tax on anything of value we happen to find on the people trying to kill us? Why exactly are we protecting this guy's right to rule?
While I am sure that you can find real life examples of people who call the volunteer fire department when their house is on fire, and then try to bill the volunteer fire department for the water damage their house sustained, I assure you that such people are @$$hats.
If the local lord is such an @$$hat, I think either your players are going to realize that you want to take money away from them and acquiese, or their characters might seriously consider deposing such a ruler.
The ruler is unable to protect his people, unwilling to pay people to do so, and intent on financially penalizing anyone willing to do so for no pay. He's automatically NOT a good ruler, and his actions have jeopardized his people.
Now, if you want PCs to pay taxes on goods, I would assume those are already factored into the prices in the rule books. If they want to own land, raise crops, sell goods, provide services, those things are all not covered in the books, and totally up to your group ANYWAY.
SiderisAnon
First Post
I enforce tithing in pretty much all my games. (About the only ones I haven't were ones years ago where I knew the player couldn't handle the idea of a religious tax without going ballistic.) In almost every game, characters who are part of a holy order would be expected to tithe in some fashion, whether that's gold coins, treasure items, or creating/donating magic items. In any game I run where the church is a strong force, everyone pays a tithe or ends up with social repercussions.
I tend to run a more "real world accurate" game. It's certainly not a full and true simulation because it is just a game. However, I like mixing in numerous elements of history. So, since in European history the church would charge a tax on every member of the community and could choose to charge taxes for special projects sometimes, I incorporate it into the game. I also generally run with the kind of players who like and expect this kind of level of details. They generally end up owning land, doing trade, financing businesses, or somehow else being involved in the local economy, so the details help the game.
(As a side note, the idea of a church tax on every person doesn't work as well in the "typical" D&D society where there are numerous deities and they are all in competition with each other. The Catholic church was a major political and economic power, so it could get what it wanted. The Church of Zeus might be respected, but when there's a Church of Odin and a Church of Ra just down the street, the power tends to be divided up among the churches unless they are organized as a single church that worships multiple deities.)
I would imagine for a multi-god world, folks would donate as part of an offering to the gods for a boon. Perhaps at holidays and such. Thus, the "tax" would be spread around.
Historically, it kind of worked that way. If I recall, Archimedes the inventor made a number of "shrine" contraptions that did cool things when you put a coin in. Thus impressing the locals. There was a history channel show about it.
SiderisAnon
First Post
Oh, most definitely. You would also see money spread around because it was not uncommon to pay special fees or make special donations to a church/priest in order to intercede on your behalf. (Loved one sick? Pay the priest to pray extra and burn special incense so the god will make them better.)
In a typical D&D world, this could easily translate into a more mercantile setup at times since some priests don't have to pray and hope the loved one gets better, they just cast a spell and it works.
However, I was speaking in terms of actual required church taxes. Historically, there have been times when the predominant religion actually applied taxes. These were not donations or "it's customary to tithe" situations, these were enforceable fees you had to pay or suffer the consequences. I would think that in general, D&D churches wouldn't have the political power to enforce taxes paid to the church because there's no unified and dominant religion.
An exception, of course, would be where the church is also the landowner. (This happened historically too.) Then the church can be receiving both religious fees and typical fees that people pay when the live or work on a lord's lands.
