D&D General Technology in D&D, the IRL Timeline, and Pausing It.

[Cadence]

The issue of different inventions and discoveries comes up in threads now and then (why not have gun powder? what makes a world believable? shouldn't usual physics and chemistry work by default? etc...). And so I was wondering today about when different inventions came about/became widely used in real life. I give a rough timeline below, and if anyone has more to add or corrections to make, please put them in a reply!! I'll edit the list as I see them.

Building from this, is there an easy way to justify why an x,000 year old civilization with scholars (or PCs whose players' took science classes) hasn't come up with some of the more advanced things without the reason being some god/deity/power stopped it from happening.

• Does anything break in terms of history, physics, biology or their outcomes if a world just doesn't have much fossil fuels? (No easy heating of metropolises in colder climes? Does this stop large scale industrialization without getting rid of all the forests anywhere close?)
• Any good reasons nitro-glycerin would never be discovered, thus stalling things out at black-powder and never getting to smokeless powder?
• Does having lodestone be very rare deal with anyone really discovering electrical generation? Does having it be rare mess up how physics would word? Is non-magical electrical generation enough harder than some other things that it can just be handwaved away?

Are there any big things besides fossil fuels, nitro and its biproducts, and electricity that could really throw things off?

-----

pre-1000
Abacus
Aqua regia
Ballista
Banknotes
Cement
Chain mail
Cog ships
Crossbow
Dulcimer
Elements discovered: Antimony, Arsenic, Bismuth, Carbon, Copper, Gold, Iron, Lead, Mercury, Platinum, Silver, Sulfur, Tin, Zinc
Fiddle
Fireworks
Firelance
Glassblowing
Greek fire
Gunpowder
Hardened and tempered steel blades
Hindu-arabic numerals (but not in Europe)
Longboats
Mangonel
Miasma theory of diseases
Onager
O-Yoroi armor
Paper
Porcelain
Quillon (Cross-guard)
Rebec
Recurve bow
Sulfur Matches
Theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics
Toilet Paper
Six trigonometric functions
Spontaneous generation theory
Windmill
Woodblock Printing
Water Wheel
Windmill

1000s
Alfahzen refutes extramission theory of vision
Fauchard
Moveable Type
Solving polynomial equations

1100s
Bessemer process
Bond Trading
Compass
Counterweight Trebuchet

1200s
Double-handed Broadsword
English Longbow
Eyeglasses
Falchion
Hand Cannon
Landmine
Modern buttons
Optical lenses

1300s
Bardiche
Blast furnace
Cannon
Carrack
Clavichord
Full plate armour
Halberd in wide use
Katana
Litmus (for acids and bases)
Multistage Rocket
Naval mine
Slide Trumpet
Viola

1400s
Arabic numerals widely known in Europe
Arquebus
Bastard Sword
Caravel
Coil spring
da Vinci (for example) still advocates extramission theory of vision
Infinite power series expansion of pi
Mariner's Astrolabe
Matchlock
Mechanized clock
Printing Press
Ranseur
Rapier

1500s
Arabic numerals commonly used in Europe
Floating Dry Dock
Galleon
Harpsichord
Heliocentricism fully worked out
Mercator Projection Map
Rifling
Smoothbore Musket
Violin
Wheel lock

1600s
Bacteria discovered
Barometer
Elements discovered: Phosphorous
Flintlock
Mechanical Calculator
Microscope
Newspaper
Pendulum Clock
Telescope
Vacuum Pump
Slide rule
Socket bayonet

1700-1749
Alcohol thermometer
Commercial steam engine (for pumping water)
Elements identified: Cobalt
Flying shuttle for looms
Mechanized Cotton Spinning Machine
Piano

1750-1799
Artificial Refrigeration
Carbonated Water
Cottin gin
Dueling pistols
Early Steamboat
Elements identified: Hyrdrogen, Nickel, Magnesium, Oxygen, etc...
Hot Air Baloon
Lithography
Modern Moldboard Plow
Modern parachute
Precursors to evolutionary theory
Sewing Machine
Sextant for navigating
Smallpox vaccine
Steam Powered vehicles
Threshing Machine

Later
Arc lamp
Bolt Action
Dynamite
Friction match
General Anesthetic
Germ theory
Heliography
Internal Compustion engine
Lawn Mower
Locking Door handle (post 5)
Modern woodpulp paper production
Morphine
Nitroglycerin
Pastuerization
Percussion cap guns
Smokeless powder
Spontaneous generation disproven
Steam Locamotive
Superphosphate fertilizer
Valved brass instruments
Votaic pile
Workable Steamboat
Zipper

 

[Charlaquin]

So, much like calling a species “more evolved” than another, calling a society “more advanced” than another assumes a proper trajectory which societies have some natural inclination to follow. Furthermore, it treats Western Europe as the blueprint for that proper trajectory. There are many reasons that a very ancient society might lack any given technology and many reasons that a very young society might possess any given technology.

The main thing we tend to associate with societal “advancement” is institutionalization. Societies which organize themselves around large, centralized institutions - governing bodies, standardized educational systems, large-scale public works, etc. these are the hallmarks of an institutionalized society. And historically, institutionalized societies do tend to grow more institutionalized with time.

Many of the technologies you list here were invented to address the needs of institutionalized societies - they wouldn’t be invented by a decentralized, nomadic, hunting and gathering society, not because such a society hadn’t had enough time to “advance,” but because they are organized in such a way which does not create demand for them.

Historically, the biggest driving factor in societal institutionalization is the need to move large quantities of water. Water is essential to life, and it is very heavy, so when you have a group of people who need to move a lot of water from one place to another to live, they generally need some sort of top-down organizational structure to get it done. Societies with easy access to water and no need to move it tend to be less top-down, less centralized, less institutionalized.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Building from this, is there an easy way to justify why an x,000 year old civilization with scholars (or PCs whose players' took science classes) hasn't come up with some of the more advanced things without the reason being some god/deity/power stopped it from happening.

• Does anything break in terms of history, physics, biology or their outcomes if a world just doesn't have much fossil fuels? (No easy heating of metropolises in colder climes? Does this stop large scale industrialization without getting rid of all the forests anywhere close?)
• Any good reasons nitro-glycerin would never be discovered, thus stalling things out at black-powder and never getting to smokeless powder?
• Does having lodestone be very rare deal with anyone really discovering electrical generation? Does having it be rare mess up how physics would word? Is non-magical electrical generation enough harder than some other things that it can just be handwaved away?

Are there any big things besides fossil fuels, nitro and its biproducts, and electricity that could really throw things off?

This is largely dependent on your setting/world. Is the current civilization thousands of years old? Does your world have tens or even hundreds of generations of elven bloodline or just a handful of generations?

With everything you bring up, what about the improvements in magic over the hundreds or possibly thousands of years?

That is why it is difficult (at best) IMO to come up with a reasonably believable history for a game world. Most products assume magic and/or technology froze at some point and hardly improved afterwards.

Many settings have a "lost ancient civilization or prior age (a la Tolkien)" and the present state of things is better than it was, but is still far behind that "prior or lost era".

Consider the technology of ancient cultures in our own world, like the Egyptians and Romans. Some of the things they did we barely comprehend now. Also think about other cultures of mysticism and such. Modern cultures dismiss them, but who knows what they were capable of then (or even now, really)? Consider Stone Hedge and other mystic sites.

Much of history was lost so at best we speculate.

A fantasy world can be the same thing, or completely different. When it comes to magic, how prevalent magic is in the setting is a huge part of the atmosphere. Do you have flying airships? Are they magic or science? Are major city streets lite by continual flames or a natural gas system under the streets? Is some warlord mass producing weapons like Saruman's (?) orcs and goblins did, making "cleaver-swords" (?) a dozen at a time? Inferior weapons, probably, but still deadly.

As a DM and with your players you can set the stage for whatever levels of technology or magic you want, and probably come up with a rationale why that is your current level of "advances" in those respects.

 

[prabe]

Given how young most setting worlds are, there's a case for less in the way of fossil fuels, if not none. That said, if you have coal seams, you probably have oil. And unless your ironmaking civilizations are denuding vast forests, you probably have coal.

To an extent, what tech you have is going to be a compromise between what breaks your verisimilitude and what breaks your aesthetic preferences. If you don't like gunpowder in your D&D--and that's what matters to you--you probably won't have it. If the world having large quantities of steel but no gunpowder just breaks your suspension of disbelief--and that's what matters to you--you'll probably be running D&D with gunpowder.

 

[Aldarc]

Tangentially related to your thread, but the first locking door handle/knob was patented in 1878.

 

[Jer]

Building from this, is there an easy way to justify why an x,000 year old civilization with scholars (or PCs whose players' took science classes) hasn't come up with some of the more advanced things without the reason being some god/deity/power stopped it from happening.

There's no indication that every gameworld had a massive prehistoric die-off that created our fossil fuel reserves. Worlds could also be iron poor compared to ours - might be a reason that the fey are more prevalent in those worlds - all of the iron might be at the surface and the core might be something else. Many worlds have apocalypses in their history that will disrupt everything. We have evidence of stable civilizations in our own history that lasted for thousands of years without much in the way of change (see the Egyptian dynasties). Our world doesn't have intelligent non-humans like dragons and mind flayers that might be working behind the scenes to keep technology under control.

But also Magic is a pretty big disruptive element. And having active gods/demons/archfey/whatever that are constantly meddling in your world would also change things a lot. Pretty much any quesiton of "why does the world work like the real world in some ways and not in others" can be answered with "for the same reason that wizards can cast fireball in the world but nobody can do it in the real world".

 

[Greggy C]

Was the name "Bastard Sword" dropped because it was a "swear word". Despite being a bastard, I really loved that name. And Graz'zt had a cool wavy bastard sword that dripped acid.

 

[Cadence]

So, much like calling a species “more evolved” than another, calling a society “more advanced” than another assumes a proper trajectory which societies have some natural inclination to follow. Furthermore, it treats Western Europe as the blueprint for that proper trajectory.

I was trying to avoid doing that. For some of the early part of the timeline in particular, there are places Europe is definitely behind.

There are many reasons that a very ancient society might lack any given technology and many reasons that a very young society might possess any given technology.

The main thing we tend to associate with societal “advancement” is institutionalization. Societies which organize themselves around large, centralized institutions - governing bodies, standardized educational systems, large-scale public works, etc. these are the hallmarks of an institutionalized society. And historically, institutionalized societies do tend to grow more institutionalized with time.

Many of the technologies you list here were invented to address the needs of institutionalized societies - they wouldn’t be invented by a decentralized, nomadic, hunting and gathering society, not because such a society hadn’t had enough time to “advance,” but because they are organized in such a way which does not create demand for them.

For a lot of this I was picturing the stereotypical Greyhawk/Faerun that had a few really big cities and the like. If there was even one of those that came up with some technology that was seen as useful, it feels like it would eventually spread around to anyplace it was connected to by (several steps if needed of) trade.

It feels like a place doesn't even need to be decentralized not to come up with lots of things -- just to not have a bunch of other places it's a few steps away from trading with. How does Eurasia go if you take out any of India, China, Mesopotamia, the eastern Mediterranean, Arabia, Greece, Rome, western Europe, at the different time points? (Both for the discoveries and developments, but also for the earlier animal/plant domestications that could then be spread).

A set up that didn't work like that would have no reason to come up with lots of those things -- but in that case it feels like it wouldn't have come up with lots of the things in the 5e rule book.

 

[Cadence]

Given how young most setting worlds are, there's a case for less in the way of fossil fuels, if not none. That said, if you have coal seams, you probably have oil. And unless your ironmaking civilizations are denuding vast forests, you probably have coal.

Do you have a favorite reference on how much various places used Coal from 1000-1600 outside of England? (Google only wants to show me that. Were peat and wood huge things too?)

To an extent, what tech you have is going to be a compromise between what breaks your verisimilitude and what breaks your aesthetic preferences. If you don't like gunpowder in your D&D--and that's what matters to you--you probably won't have it. If the world having large quantities of steel but no gunpowder just breaks your suspension of disbelief--and that's what

I think I'm good with the table have the suspension of belief to have no gunpowder usually. And a bunch of games are set having firearms being a recent thing. I'm partially trying to picture how to have them stuck in limbo and not getting to the more modern ones. (Maybe the longer lived races can always have someone put 20 years into mastering the longbow and so the archers always kick the snot out of the early gunners? Maybe black powder disrupts enchantment so you can't enchant the guns?)

 

[Cadence]

Was the name "Bastard Sword" dropped because it was a "swear word". Despite being a bastard, I really loved that name. And Graz'zt had a cool wavy bastard sword that dripped acid.

I didn't realize it wasn't! Google says: