Telekinesis question related to anti-magic

[NewJeffCT]

This is related to my "evil high priest" thread, and also the beholder actions thread started by Jhaelen.

But, if a beholder used its anti-magic ray to zap a couple of the party spellcasters, then used its telekinesis ray to attack one of the casters with a pile of rubble. The violent thrust move would allow the beholder to toss the rubble/rocks/stone from outside the Anti-Magic zone (AMZ) into the AMZ for 15d6 damage (assuming the beholder casts at a higher level than standard).

However, if I wanted to instead drop the rocks onto one of the casters to bury them & keep them within the AMZ, is that something I could do instead? I know you could grapple & pin with T/K, but I don't think you could do that inside the AMZ. (I'm thinking of the Earthquake spell & pinning under rocks) Maybe allow them a reflex save not to be pinned under the rock? Or, would you not allow the pinning?

 

[coyote6]

A beholder's CL13 telekinesis can only move 325 lbs; that would be a small amount of rubble, which is barely 2.3 cu ft -- I could see where a carefully placed 325 lb chunk of rock would pin someone (depending on their Strength), but thrown from outside an antimagic zone, it would seem unlikely to pin someone. So I'd definitely give a Ref save to avoid, and a not-terribly-difficult roll of some sort to escape. It's a long way from dropping a whole roof or avalanche on someone, IMHO.

What you might want to do is to pin the guy down first, with carefully-moved rubble; then zap 'em with the antimagic. It might be hard to pull off, timing-wise.

Edit: per the rules on collapsing ceilings, a 5x5 zone of rubble weighs 2000 lbs, is Ref DC 15 to avoid (half damage & not buried), and possibly a Str 25 check to free yourself; the beholder's tossed rubble is less than a sixth of that, so that Str DC should probably be much lower. Maybe DC 15? That's a wild guess.

FWIW, it also says a barehanded person can clear five times their heavy load of rubble in one minute; that's half the heavy load in one round, so a Str 12 would clear 65 lbs/round.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

[edit: ninja'ed by coyote6! touche!]

I've got no problem with pinning PCs under rubble with an earthquake, a toppled column or something.

The problem I'd have with using TK is that at 15th level that's "only" 375lb of rock. A block of stone 1ft x 1ft x1ft weighs around 300-500lb... so 375 lb isn't really all that much "stuff". Even as gravel, it would only be ankle deep or so, not really enough to pin with, imho

A big pile of chains or a bucket of sovereign glue, on the other hand....

 

[NewJeffCT]

ok, i had pictured a rock as much bigger than that - and, the beholder is casting at level 18, so would be able to do the full 375 pounds, maybe empowered to 550?

However, the two PC casters in question are a human sorcerer with a STR of 12 and a halfling psion with a STR of 6. I could see the halfling being pinned by a rock that small?

 

[Jhaelen]

I don't think the amount of rocks is sufficient for a pin. I just had a look at the cave-in rules and it mentions that removing a square filled with rocks requires moving 2000 pounds. You're also allowed a reflex save (DC15) to avoid being buried.
Even Small creatures occupy one square. I might rule that a tiny creature could be buried using a smaller amount of rubble, e.g. 1/8, or 250 pounds.

Now, if the beholder had an opportunity to prepare a trap by piling rubble on top of a weakened ceiling, he could use his disintegration ray on the ceiling to cause a _real_ cave in... alternatively this could be modeled using one of the example traps (and maybe advancing it using the Dungeonscape rules).

 

[NewJeffCT]

I don't think the amount of rocks is sufficient for a pin. I just had a look at the cave-in rules and it mentions that removing a square filled with rocks requires moving 2000 pounds. You're also allowed a reflex save (DC15) to avoid being buried.
Even Small creatures occupy one square. I might rule that a tiny creature could be buried using a smaller amount of rubble, e.g. 1/8, or 250 pounds.

Now, if the beholder had an opportunity to prepare a trap by piling rubble on top of a weakened ceiling, he could use his disintegration ray on the ceiling to cause a _real_ cave in... alternatively this could be modeled using one of the example traps (and maybe advancing it using the Dungeonscape rules).

OK, that's fine - the beholder is a fiendish one that will be gated in, so will not have time to prepare. I was just trying to think of a way to trap two casters within the anti-magic zone (sorcerer & psion or sorcerer & cleric)

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

As for pinning a PC, I think maybe a small STR 6 PC could be pinned, based on the lifting/dragging rules. The absolute max weight he could move is 300lb, maybe even less if you consider "being attacked by an advanced beholder who's a minion to even bigger and badder evil buddies" an unfavorable circumstance.

Does the beholder only have stone rubble to throw around? Keep in mind it could be tossing around lighter or differently shaped stuff:

- a 10ft beam of wood
- 2 or 3+ med. corpses in various states of decay
- a small tree
- a barrel of wine/water
(and from the SRD equipment lists)
- 12 large-size steel shields
- 50ft x 50ft of canvas, rolled up (sail) or a pile
- 6 suits of full-plate
- 1600 ft of chain
- a couple of rowboats

If i did the math right, all this stuff is in the same weight range as a block of stone-- just as heavy, but quite a bit bigger or more difficult to deal with &/or evade. Maybe not pinning the PCs, but possibly distracting them for a couple rounds in other ways.

 

[NewJeffCT]

They are in sort of an unholy arena/auditorium/coliseum sort of setting, so there are rows of wooden benches and scores of charred corpses all about.

 

[coyote6]

If you just want to pin 'em down, any chance the surviving minions might have a couple of tanglefoot bags handy? It'd be a bit convenient (the EHP summons the mega-eye tyrant from Hell, and Joe and Ivan happen to have bags to root the casters down in the AMZ), but you could rationalize it.

If it's an arena, and slaves are made to fight, then the tanglefoot bags are to keep the slaves from trying to escape. That's the ticket!

 

[shadyizok]

Hmm, does the master of the invisble hand prc add anything usefull to a beholder's option? Maybe double the maximum load or something?