Teleknesis: where's the power?

[Jack Simth]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet but how about piling those greatswords onto a tensers floating disk? It should be able to easily handle the weight.

15 greatswords suddenly sounds like a viable and fun tactic.

That'd be just about perfect, actually - size is within reason for normal Greatswords (five-foot swords, 3 foot diameter disk), and it'll hold about quite a few shots. Won't work so hot if you want Large Greatswords at 3d6, or Colossal Sianghams at 3d8 due to the length of those items ... but if you can swing a stack of lots of colossal sling bullets (3d6 each) on it, you can cast Greater Magic Weapon on 50 of them at a time.... and Core, they only weigh in at 8 pounds each, so you can fit 12 and a half per caster level - that's three full shots per battle, with a half-shot at the end, for a four-battle day. At 12th level, the Sorcerer doing this (and tossing Greater Magic Weapon on them for grins) is getting... what, 36d6+36 damage per standard action in combat (give or take based on the target's AC and miss chance)?

Hmm... you know, the Violent Thrust section does not specify what you use for the attack roll. The Combat Maneuver section does (caster level for BAB, Int/Cha for Str) but the Violent Thrust section just says you have to make an attack roll. The Sorcerer above could be looking at BAB (+6)+Dex (call it +4 at that level), plus the weapon enhancement (+3, on the above), for a +13 attack roll. What's a standard AC at CR 12? Adult Brass, AC 27; Purple Worm, AC 19, Kolyarut AC 27, Roper AC 24, NPC Fighter AC 25 - so we're looking at roughly a 50% hit chance, for about 18d6+18 actual damage per round - not shabby, but not overpowering. Hmm....

 

[Plane Sailing]

A house rule that I've used for violent thrust is that violent thrust basically does caster level d6 damage no matter what you throw. Large objects go more slowly, small objects go faster sharp objects tumble all over the place and it all events out.

I felt that this keeps it well balanced with other 5th level spells and prevents any possibility of rules-lawyering on the number of colossal greatswords carried around (or whatever)!

Cheers

 

[Felon]

..given all the evidence provided to you, do you *still* think it is only worth being a 2nd level spell?

Well, I don't count a self-assured tone as "evidence", and that stipulation boils this thread down real quick. We've got some ideas that sound really great as long as you don't think about them for more than about ten seconds. One fellow's suggesting a floating disk can hold 15 greatswords, and another guy is jumping in to say that it's "just about perfect", and I'm the only one to chime in and question the logistics here? You would have great difficulty piling half that number of greatswords on top of a stationary three foot diameter disk. Now, you're gonna go cavorting through a dungeon with that thing bouncing around next to you? Forget it.

The reason TK is a 5th-level spell is so that it can have the caster level cap that it does (as a 2nd-level spell its caster level should peter out at around 5th).

The missile rack of giant arrows idea is cute though. Might be something I can use there.

 

[Felix]

One fellow's suggesting a floating disk can hold 15 greatswords, and another guy is jumping in to say that it's "just about perfect", and I'm the only one to chime in and question the logistics here?

I suppose you missed the part where I mentioned I was able to hurl ~10 greataxes at an opponent without artificially manipulating the environment. Would you care to question the logistics?

 

[Cameron]

Considering there is a lot of grey area with TK, the spell can be used to try a lot of things.

While I don't agree with it, if the DM feels a violently thrusted victim should be treated as drawing AoOs as though moving, you can really ruin a medium creatures day. Especially if you have a flying ally to fling them at.

Red x's are where AoO's may occur depending on DM's opinions.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?t=135863&page=1&pp=40

You only provoke an aoo once for each action, so that target will only provoke 3 AoO, 1 from each demon. Not as bad as you might think

Btw., Bullrush says you do provoke aoos, so that is a basis for arguing that TK will cause the target to provoke also.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, I don't count a self-assured tone as "evidence", and that stipulation boils this thread down real quick. We've got some ideas that sound really great as long as you don't think about them for more than about ten seconds. One fellow's suggesting a floating disk can hold 15 greatswords, and another guy is jumping in to say that it's "just about perfect", and I'm the only one to chime in and question the logistics here? You would have great difficulty piling half that number of greatswords on top of a stationary three foot diameter disk. Now, you're gonna go cavorting through a dungeon with that thing bouncing around next to you? Forget it.

I've actually handled a Greatsword - my brother purchased one for my uncle's birthday one year; with normal sized Greatswords, you wouldn't have too much trouble stacking them on a disk that size. Sure, they'd be sticking out a little, but the center of gravity is weighted towards the hilt a rather lot. Also, it's hardly going to be "bouncing around" as the disk floats by definition (and name) of the spell); it's expected to be a pretty smooth ride.

And if you're worried about it, you can command the disk to follow you at a higher than normal distance, so that if the Greatswords fall off, there's nothing for them to hit but the floor. Won't affect the use of Telekinesis overly much.

 

[Nazerel]

The things that bug me about the TK spell is the relatively low weight limitations (a max of 375 pounds at level 15? that's it? how does a caster hope to affect larger creatures with this, or even 2 fully grown medium-sized targets with this spell? pretty weak) and the violent thrust manuever (a 5th level spell that hurls a target away for only 1d6 damage? and its allowed a Will save and SR? definitely too weak).

The weight restriction is trickier to handle (maybe 50 lbs per caster level instead of just 25 but I'm afraid that might be too easily abusable with things like hurled greatswords and such), but a custom house-rule I'd use for the violent thrust is for the spell to deal 1d6 damage for each 10 feet of space the target is thrown (as if it had fallen) up to a maximum of 10d6 or thereabouts (not quite as good as if it had truly fallen and letting gravity do the work); I'd also rule that such movement won't draw AoOs for moving in and out of other creatures' threatened spaces or else you'd get some broken cheese with the party's meat shields just standing there like a cleaving meatgrinder gauntlet waiting for the caster to hurl baddies left and right. Falling draws AoO? That makes no real sense to me.

But other than that, it's a very versatile utility spell. I get around TK's concentration problem with the sonorous hum spell (actually an intelligent weapon with the spell continually active when unsheathed, sort of like the hum of a lightsaber, heh).

 

[Jack Simth]

The things that bug me about the TK spell is the relatively low weight limitations (a max of 375 pounds at level 15? that's it? how does a caster hope to affect larger creatures with this, or even 2 fully grown medium-sized targets with this spell? pretty weak) and the violent thrust manuever (a 5th level spell that hurls a target away for only 1d6 damage? and its allowed a Will save and SR? definitely too weak).

Sure, it's weak if you use the weakest version (hurling your opponent at a wall to damage the opponent).

Hurling a bunch of boulders at an opponent? Well, if you've got a bunch of handy 25 pound rocks (or one boulder big enough that it's just barely within your weight limit), then the spell becomes a bunch of attack rolls for a no-save, no-SR 1d6/level spell (more if you use various weapons, as discussed above). Downside: It's single-target, and you have to hit full AC, not touch AC. It's a weaker version of the Orb spells. But that's OK, as it has more useful functions than dealing damage.

The other options of the spell let you do some fun stuff.

Facing a low Will save humanoid melee combatant? Sustained force, lift him off the ground, point him any which direction you choose (yeah, I know - no facing in D&D... but come on... you just PICKED HIM UP OFF THE GROUND; why can't you keep him from hitting your buddies by way of pointing him away?). Fighter has 15 rounds of Win by way of a reach weapon.

Facing a high Will save caster? Combat Manuevers - Grapple, specifically. Totally neuters *most* casters fairly effectively, up until the point where the caster has a "get out of grapple" card, as described above. Just for being grappled, that's no Somatic components, DC 20+spell level Concentration check to get a spell off at all, an extra full-round action to retreive spell components, and all spells must be 1 standard action or less (so the Core Sorcerer can't Metamagic at all). If they're Pinned, they can't get off much of any spell at all, as you can Silence them, too. Sure, it doesn't leave you any actions (as it is a standard action to concentrate on a spell), but you're in a party, right? This is where the Fighter earns his cut. Rogue can help out very well, too, as anyone in a grapple is considered flat-footed to those not in the grapple - Sneak Attack Time! It's an action-denial spell.

The weight restriction is trickier to handle (maybe 50 lbs per caster level instead of just 25 but I'm afraid that might be too easily abusable with things like hurled greatswords and such),

Yeah, it permits another Size Category on the Greatswords - from Large Greatswords at 3d6 and 16 pounds, to Huge Greatswords at 3d8 and 32 pounds.

but a custom house-rule I'd use for the violent thrust is for the spell to deal 1d6 damage for each 10 feet of space the target is thrown (as if it had fallen) up to a maximum of 10d6 or thereabouts (not quite as good as if it had truly fallen and letting gravity do the work); I'd also rule that such movement won't draw AoOs for moving in and out of other creatures' threatened spaces or else you'd get some broken cheese with the party's meat shields just standing there like a cleaving meatgrinder gauntlet waiting for the caster to hurl baddies left and right. Falling draws AoO? That makes no real sense to me.

An AoO happens whenever you let your guard down for whatever reason. One can't guard oneself very effectively with no footing, being forced to move a distance.

But even with that house-rule, the Telekinetic just switches out to Combat Manuevers again, and uses the Bull Rush option - doesn't do any damage, but Bull-Rush movement does provoke.

But other than that, it's a very versatile utility spell. I get around TK's concentration problem with the sonorous hum spell (actually an intelligent weapon with the spell continually active when unsheathed, sort of like the hum of a lightsaber, heh).

Nice item. To the point of probably broken, if abused (there's a lot of duration: Concentration spells out there that are better than other spells of their level for the simple reason that Concentrating on it means you're not casting another spell of that level; Summon Swarm, for example).

 

[Nazerel]

Sure, it's weak if you use the weakest version (hurling your opponent at a wall to damage the opponent).

Nice item. To the point of probably broken, if abused (there's a lot of duration: Concentration spells out there that are better than other spells of their level for the simple reason that Concentrating on it means you're not casting another spell of that level; Summon Swarm, for example).

True, but I also recall that there was a feat called Extraordinary Concentration in Complete Adventurer (I believe) that allowed one to maintain concentration of a spell as a move action provided that you pass a set Concentrate DC (not too hard at the mid-high levels with maxed out ranks and +skill magic items like a tunic of steady spellcasting), so conceivably one could maintain such a spell indefinitely while continuing to cast other spells, as you mentioned. Is this feat broken then?

As for the item I mentioned, I rationalize it being balanced by the fact it's intelligent and a Weapon of Legacy as well (so it does have a mind of its own and so not everyone can just pick it up and use it, and if they do, it'll simply cease functioning). The character wielding said item isn't into summon spells, but rather detect spells (magic, thoughts), calm emotions, and, of course, telekinesis.

Not being defensive, btw, just pointing out some facts.

 

[Jack Simth]

True, but I also recall that there was a feat called Extraordinary Concentration in Complete Adventurer (I believe) that allowed one to maintain concentration of a spell as a move action provided that you pass a set Concentrate DC (not too hard at the mid-high levels with maxed out ranks and +skill magic items like a tunic of steady spellcasting), so conceivably one could maintain such a spell indefinitely while continuing to cast other spells, as you mentioned. Is this feat broken then?

DC 25 + Spell Level, requires 15 ranks in Concentration to take it (so minimum character level of 12). If you can arrange so that you're not going to fail the concentration check often (call it 75% or greater chance of successfully concentrating on your highest level spell; modifier of 19+Spell Level) then yes, it too is broken when abused. Actions are one of the most valuable things in combat; virtually anything that effectively grants more actions (be that granting actions directly, or removing the continued action costs from things with balanced with continued action costs) is fairly readily breakable.

As for the item I mentioned, I rationalize it being balanced by the fact it's intelligent and a Weapon of Legacy as well (so it does have a mind of its own and so not everyone can just pick it up and use it, and if they do, it'll simply cease functioning). The character wielding said item isn't into summon spells, but rather detect spells (magic, thoughts), calm emotions, and, of course, telekinesis.

Not being defensive, btw, just pointing out some facts.

Okay, so you mostly only use it for utility spells - not too bad, then; much like the Cleric using Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) to give the entire party Fast Healing all day (by way of Mass Lesser Vigor) - cleric is just taking an unorthodox way to fulfill part of the Cleric's CR expected role in a party (Healing allies).