Telepathy (Su) questions (also MM2 meenlocks)

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I posted this recently on WotC's boards, but got no takers... So... Here it is reposted. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

I was looking at a monster in the Monster Manual 2 with the Telepathy ability. Is it stated anywhere that a creature with Telepathy must have line-of-sight to communicate with another creature telepathically?

The meenlock can only communicate via telepathy in fact, and lives in a warren of tunnels small enough for Tiny creatures, so I would imagine that a creature doesn't need line-of-sight with the other creature in order to use its Telepathy to sommunicate. So a creature with Telepathy could conceivably communicate straight through solid stone up to the range of the ability.

Does a creature with Telepathy automatically sense minds that enter the ability's range? If not, how would it know it could communicate with the other mind? Thus my question about needing line-of-sight (via vision, or tremorsense, or blindsight, etc.)

If a creature with Telepathy does know when minds it can communicate with are in its range, does Telepathy include some ability to locate with enough precision to discern single minds out of crowds of minds? It seems silly to ask that, with the apparent answer being of course it could. But then another question arises, is Telepathy enough to target such a creature for attacks? Such as the target of a feeblemind spell?

Does the Telepathy ability include some feature of the detect thought spell built in?

What all these questions are leading up to issues with the meenlock's Rend Mind ability. It is worded thusly, "Rend Mind (Su): A meenlock can project thoughts and suggestions into the mind of a single creature within 300 feet. These thoughts are usually geared to cause paranoia--images of stalking monsters or peering eyes, and the sensation of being followed, watched, or sized up. The target of this mind-affecting phantasm must make a successful Will save (DC 14) or rake 1d4 points of Wisdom damage. Once a meenlock uses this ability, it must wait 1d4 rounds before doing so again." FWIW, meenlock's telepathy range is 300 feet as well.

So, can a meenlock hit a target with Rend Mind though 299 feet of solid stone?


Thanks for any helpful comments to clarify.
Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Cheiromancer]

I would adjudicate telepathy based on Rary's Telepathic Bond, which requires line of sight to establish. After establishing the link, the bond lasts as long as they stay within range (300 feet for a meenlock).

I would not allow the meenlock to use its Rend Mind ability through a link established in this way: it is a separate ability from telepathy and would need a its own line of sight. The 300 foot range would apply only if there was some light source present; otherwise it would have to be within range of its darkvision.

Even with a line of sight requirement, and even with the 1d4 round wait between uses, Rend Mind is still an incredibly strong ability. A meenlock has +16 to hide, and can dimension door a distance of 60 feet every two rounds: they are hard to spot, and hard to catch. They are lawful creatures who fight in groups of 3-6, and who can coordinate their actions telepathically: that means they can concentrate on one character at a time. Each successful attack makes subsequent attacks more likely to succeed, since Wisdom damage reduces your ability to make a Will save.

Given that the flavor text says that Rend Mind is "a slow mental assault" and that "some meenlocks have been known to stalk and harass their victims in this way for days," I think there has to be some other limitation on the ability. I'd make it like the Fear Aura effect, and say that any creature that makes a saving throw against the effect cannot be affected again by that meenlock's rend mind attack for 24 hours.

[edit]I used a meenlock against a 9th level character- a holy liberator with a number of base levels (including ranger, sorcerer and barbarian). For some reason he has a really high will save, and only failed on a 1. He took a little damage (4 total) passing through the meenlock's territory, then he went where the meenlock didn't want to go, and the encounter ended. So, pretty inconclusive.[/edit]

 

[hong]

The entry for Telepathy in the 3.5E MM glossary says "a creature with this ability can communicate telepathically with any other creature within a certain range". While not explicit on the subject, I'd read that as saying you don't need line of effect or line of sight.

 

[Camarath]

While not explicit on the subject, I'd read that as saying you don't need line of effect or line of sight.

I agree, I see nothing that requires Telepathy to have line of effect or line of sight.

Also as far as I can see there is nothing in the Telepathy ability that would allow its possessor to detect, locate, or target creatures via it. The only effect that Telepathy states it grants is the ability to communicate with other creatures and so I would limit its effects to communication.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

ueen

Thanks for the thoughts on this. It looks like I'm not the only one who sees some unclarity in the ability. Understandably, IMO, because of the general aversion of D&D'ers to anything that smacks of blending psionic-like abilities with magic.

With my research on the Telepathy [Su] ability, I looked up other creatures with the same ability. The Formian Queen seems to be an important creature to consider, a creature that has no movement ability. From the Formian Queen flavor text,

"The formian queen sits at the center of the hive-city, her bloated form never moving from the royal chamber. She is served and guarded by the most loyal myrmarchs.

"The formian queen cannot move. With her telepathic abilities, though, she can send instructions to and get reports from any formian within her range."

The Formian Queen's Telepathy (Su) ability reads thusly, "Telepathy (Su): The queen can communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature within 50 miles whose presence she is aware of."

"Whose presence she is aware of" introduces an amount of uncertainty for those seeking clarity on what the general Telepathy ability is meant to do. But if the flavor text states she can send and receive reports (within range) from her servants who do not have Telepathy, does this mean that it should work the same for all other creatures with Telepathy? Why, or why not?

If the Formian Queen doesn't leave her chambers, how is she ever aware of her servants' presence for her to communicate with?

Hopefully the rest of you can recognize why I'm wrestling with the meenlock's telepathy and rend mind.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Camarath]

If the Formian Queen doesn't leave her chambers, how is she ever aware of her servants' presence for her to communicate with?

I believe the Formian Queen is aware of her brood because of the Hive Mind ability that all Formian share.

Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I believe the Formian Queen is aware of her brood because of the Hive Mind ability that all Formian share.

True, but maybe I'm troubled by the circularity of it. It seems to be read to me that a formian's Hive Mind works as it does is because the Formian Queen is telepathically in communication with them all. Otherwise why give the Formian Queen Telepathy at all?


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Camarath]

True, but maybe I'm troubled by the circularity of it. It seems to be read to me that a formian's Hive Mind works as it does is because the Formian Queen is telepathically in communication with them all. Otherwise why give the Formian Queen Telepathy at all?

Hive Mind only works between Formians and the Formian Queen Telepathy allows her to talk to any intelligent creature. Also I believe that the Formian Queen minions can make her aware of any creatures that they are aware of.