Tell me about C&C

der_kluge said:
And I'll fully admit that probably a lot of what left a bad taste in my mouth for C&C is my GM, who chose to use that rule set while running us (1st level characters) through World's Largest Dungeon. So, 4 out of 6 of us died when one of the players decided to attack a lone orc who happened to be a 6th level mage. The orc cast a fireball, enveloping all of us, and the target for non-primes was 26, which most of us couldn't conceivably beat if we wanted to.

And the d10 for initiative really irks me. Our group switched between d20 and C&C and every other week half the people were rolling the wrong die for initiative because we'd forgotten from one week to the next what we should have rolled. This is where I'm coming from on the nostalgia factor. There is no mechcanical reason why a d10 should be favored for initiative. They could have easily left it at d20 and made it more compatible with d20, and easier for people to transition to. This is the design philosophy of C&C, IMO. They went more with nostalgia than with convention, in terms of d20 conventions.

1st level party vs. a 6th level spellcaster? My sympathies.

The init. is easy to "fix". Just change it to a d20, and double any bonuses or penalties that the C&C rules give to init. (I don't think there are any, but you never know).

Personally, I prefer a d% for init., (d100), since that reduces the number of ties.
 

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I learned a long time ago to never let another player or DM determine how much you like a game. If I did that I would never have played or GMed RIFTS, Traveller, Harn, MERP, Shadowrun, or Paranoia. Beyond the poor or bad first time experiences I had, that is.

C&C is a good system. I find the saves to be intuitive. Constitution is used for poison saves, dexterity is used to defend/save versus things you can dodge, wisdom is used to save against illusions that deceive you, etc... Most of this is very intuitive to me. There are a few instances where you have to decide which stat applies best, but once you decide that, I feel it gives you a deeper understanding of the game itself.

In C&C everyone has skills. How good you are at those skills are determined by your class and whether or not the stat that applies to the skill roll being attempted is a prime stat. Where house rules are needed for skills are highly skillful skills, such as armor making, herbalism, wheel making, wagonmaking, carpentry, etc... So some house rules would be useful for skills like these.

But Listen, spot, Search, Diplomacy, Bluffing, Sense Motive, and other such skills are handled just fine by the prime attribute rules (SIEGE).

As for the editing and layout problems, they are there, I just wouldn't define them as severe or problematic. Then again I have learned many different systems, many poorly written and confusing, so maybe I am just a high level player/DM that has a high skill level in comprehending new rules. Because I found C&C largely easy to read and comprehend. Yes, some mis-spellings, some huge run on sentences, some serious "large" word useage where a few small words would have been better, but still a very understandable rules set. Much easier than the whole of 3E.

Since the story of the game and having classes that make for effective characters are more important to me than rules that cover every concieveable situtation, and building every micro-aspect of a given character, I much prefer the "clean" rules set of C&C, where I can add simple house rules to give depth to the rules my players and I agree need more depth. Which still ends up being a lot simpler than 3E.

As for nostalgia, I have always hated specialist mages. I have always preferred a conjurer or Illusionist being their own class, so this nostalgic return to an Illusionist class makes a lot more sense to me. Especially if you add in literary concepts. Outside of books written specifically for WOTC/TSR, authors rarely have a spellcaster who "specializes" as a conjurer. They are a Illusionist, Necromancer, Conjurer, etc... So this nostalgic return to having these specialist mages being an actual class, I like it and always have.
 

Not only will the second printing of the PHB clean up the editing and layout problems found int he first printing, but there will be (IIRC) a limited run of PHBs with matte covers.

Matte covers. :D
 


Moved to d20/OGL forum.

der_Kluge, next time you come to an NC Game Day, you want me to run a C&C game for you? I have a feeling it might go a lot smoother than the WLD did for you. :)

There are some things I don't like about the system that I would want to house rule for a regular game (otherwise, I would be trying harder to get my playing group in on it) but from your description, it sounds like your GM (no offense meant) blew some things big-time in his conversion. A save of 26 for a fireball? Yowza! Of course, a 6th level wizard who gets the drop on any party of first levels in D&D or C&C is going to get friend anyway, but that should go without saying. Though the SIEGE system is a little more obtusely explained than I'd like, it still works very well as a catch-all mechanic for saves and skills together. It's geared for "quicker" rather than "fine-toothed."
 

I would have to agree that your problems stem from your DM. I ran the first section of the worlds largest dungeon. As far as I can remember there is no fireball toting wizard posing as a lone orc in that section. That must have been something thrown in by your DM.
 

Henry said:
Moved to d20/OGL forum.

der_Kluge, next time you come to an NC Game Day, you want me to run a C&C game for you? I have a feeling it might go a lot smoother than the WLD did for you. :)

There are some things I don't like about the system that I would want to house rule for a regular game (otherwise, I would be trying harder to get my playing group in on it) but from your description, it sounds like your GM (no offense meant) blew some things big-time in his conversion. A save of 26 for a fireball? Yowza! Of course, a 6th level wizard who gets the drop on any party of first levels in D&D or C&C is going to get friend anyway, but that should go without saying. Though the SIEGE system is a little more obtusely explained than I'd like, it still works very well as a catch-all mechanic for saves and skills together. It's geared for "quicker" rather than "fine-toothed."

Well, in d20, the reflex save DC for a fireball (cast by a caster of any level), assuming int 14, would be 15. Thus, roughly 75% of the party could succeed. As it was, only 1 in 20 of us could succeed. The barbarian survived only by virtue of having a boatload of hitpoints, and one other actually saved, but went unconcious.

And yes, my DM doesn't think things through very thoroughly.

Punorange, as far as I know, he's running it by the book. This orc was apparently the leader of the orc clan in that area, and was not too far away from the ogre who had made the trickling water columns his home.
 


Here's my 2 cents on C&C.

Overall it's a easy to use system, but it removes a LOT of the things that I feel were the big draws to 3E.

PC's of the same class are pretty much the same. There isn't really any customization built into the core rules. Classes get most of their powers at level 1, so there is little to look forward to in gaining levels (beyond hp's, skill bonuses, and such) unless you're playing a spellcaster. Sure, C&C is easy to houserule, but once I get done hoseruling everything I want in the game, I might as well play a slightly stripped down version of 3.5.

I don't understand the move from 3, easy to discern when they need to be used saving throws, to 5. The saves in C&C are easy to use, but why break it down how ealier D&D editions did it? That was a step backwards IMO.

Like I said, it's a simple go-between from 1E and 3E. However, you need to put serious emphasis on the simple. If that's what you're looking for, great, but I'll stick to D&D 3.5.

Kane
 

Kanegrundar said:
PC's of the same class are pretty much the same. There isn't really any customization built into the core rules.

Well the system of 'primes' does provide a fair bit of customization for PCs (not as much as in 3e, but certainly more so than in any pre-3e version of D&D). A fighter who chooses INT and CHA as his/her 'primes' is going to be a lot different from a fighter who chooses DEX and CON.

Kanegrundar said:
I don't understand the move from 3, easy to discern when they need to be used saving throws, to 5. The saves in C&C are easy to use, but why break it down how ealier D&D editions did it? That was a step backwards IMO.

I don't understand why people keep thinking that the C&C saving throw system is a 'step back' to earlier editions. It is not. See my earlier post for more information on this. (And btw, there are six saving throws in C&C -- one for each ability score. Most everything is based on ability scores and class levels in C&C. Again, see my earlier post for more information on this.)
 

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