Tell me, have you seen the Eberron CSB?

[Psion]

surf-type commoners

Like, beachbums?

 

[Psion]

Care to elaborate?

How about you link the thread you quoted so I can tell who actually wrote it, then we'll talk.

 

[Hellcow]

Therefore, it is up to the DM to determine if they even exist at all.

I'd say this is the key phrase here. Because the gods are distant, you have the option of deciding that they don't exist and it's purely a matter of faith. On the other hand, perhaps they simply exist on a plane beyond mortal understanding. So the DM who thinks that magic does come from the gods is good to go as well. Decide what works for you and run with it.

See also Dolurrh, the Realm of the Dead. Why would those who worship gods not go to be with them?

Why did the Greeks go to Hades instead of Olympus? Why do ineffable gods want to be surrounded by mortal souls? And the big question -- can you be sure that they don't, since you can never meet the gods yourself? This is discussed somewhat in the following thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3732831#post3732831
... but the short form is that perhaps Dolurrh is a realm where the the soul is cleansed before passing on to something else, whether that is reincarnation or existing on a higher plane with the sovereigns.

So again, it's really up to you. If you like the idea of the gods, run with it -- they're just more mysterious and distant than in many settings. If you don't, they are like the Undying Court, which does largely draw its power from the devotion of its followers.

 

[Li Shenron]

I saw the book in a gaming store in Helsinki last week and browse throught it for a few minutes. Ok, that's not enough to make a review but it seemed quite well done to me. However I only voted 3/5 in the poll, from what I have got a glimpse of and what I have heard on these boards, the ideas are good, the implementation is good, the style is good... but the bits that I have actually read are hardly NEW and often questionable. I am afraid that there will just never be any published setting that I would like enough, something that doesn't immediately make me think "I would change this, I would override that..." Probably it's ME who deserve nothing more than a 3/5

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

How about you link the thread you quoted so I can tell who actually wrote it, then we'll talk.

I wrote it. In this thread.

And I also talked about it here.

Kieth,

Thanks for your input. I think, in my campaign, I'm not going to decide for sure whether or not they exist. One option is that they do, the other is what I outlined above.

Not having a clear answer for myself will keep me from "tainting" the game.

However, I've seen Dolurrh mentioned in a few other threads. Often followed with "Then why bother with a religion if you know you are screwed when you die anyway." My question is: How many people really know what happens when you die?

Am I right to assume Dolurrh's existance isn't common knowledge. I figure those who know about it, and are religious, assume it is a temporary holding ground where you stay until your god picks you up. Those who aren't religious assume it is everyones final fate.

 

[Psion]

Well, if you wrote it, then I have no cause to be annoyed, because how you want to run your setting is up to you.

As for me, the concept that divine magic is powered solely by one's own conviction is a theory that has never struck me as feeling right in fantasy.

I'd say this is the key phrase here. Because the gods are distant, you have the option of deciding that they don't exist and it's purely a matter of faith. On the other hand, perhaps they simply exist on a plane beyond mortal understanding.

That's cool, though. I think there is a VAST difference between deities being in your face and not existing. In fact, the idea that deities live in a plane beyond mortal understanding does jive with me because, well, that IS a beleivable model. In fact, that is a major concept in many historical faiths.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

That's cool, though. I think there is a VAST difference between deities being in your face and not existing. In fact, the idea that deities live in a plane beyond mortal understanding does jive with me because, well, that IS a beleivable model. In fact, that is a major concept in many historical faiths.

As a Christian, I completely understand this. As a DM, I can think of three different ways to go.

1. Eberron has no true gods. The three progenitor dragons are the closest things they have. Divine magic comes from Syberis who grants powers to those strong in faith. It doesn't care what the mortals have faith in, just that they have it. It is a gift to the mortals that they may change their own world through determination.

2. The gods exist, but, as Psion said, exist on a plane above and beyond mortal understanding.

3. The gods exist somewhere amidst the endless span of the Astral.

 

[Hellcow]

Am I right to assume Dolurrh's existance isn't common knowledge. I figure those who know about it, and are religious, assume it is a temporary holding ground where you stay until your god picks you up. Those who aren't religious assume it is everyones final fate.

I'd say that Dolurrh is common knowledge. Its existence drives the faith of the Blood of Vol; while the followers of this religion include necromancers and evil folks, the majority are simply people who think that going to Dolurrh sucks and want to find a way out of it. However, what happens once you get there is not common knowledge, nor is it agreed upon. Those who know about the plane know that it slowly strips away memories. Some believe this is a process of purification for reincarnation; others would say that this is the effect of slowly transitioning to the higher state of being with the sovereigns (you aren't losing your memories, they are slowly being transfered). So again, up to you. The big thing is that Dolurrh isn't actually eternal despair; eventually you fade away and pass to whatever may lie beyond. (And yes, I'd personally argue that this means that after a certain amount of time has passed means true resurrection may not be able to bring back someone who's been killed. While we could put a hard number on this, I'd prefer to leave it to the DM. If you want the epic PC cleric to be able to resurrect heroes from the war, go for it -- personally, I prefer for death to be a little more serious, so I'd make it something like 2d4+Wis modifier years before you pass on completely.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

If you want the epic PC cleric to be able to resurrect heroes from the war, go for it -- personally, I prefer for death to be a little more serious, so I'd make it something like 2d4+Wis modifier years before you pass on completely.

Cool. That's a nice little solution to a common setting problem.

 

[~Johnny~]

That's cool, though. I think there is a VAST difference between deities being in your face and not existing. In fact, the idea that deities live in a plane beyond mortal understanding does jive with me because, well, that IS a beleivable model. In fact, that is a major concept in many historical faiths.

Definitely. In my own campaign, I plan to intentionally leave the issue ambiguous. In settings where the gods' power is unquetionable, I approach clerics as divine diplomats and interpreters, who acknowledge gods as a source of power and do what they can to win the gods' favor. There can be interesting aspects to that relationship, but it does make the cleric feel a bit sycophantic sometimes.

I look forward to Eberron's religions actually requiring a degree of faith. There's no question that religious people can do miraculous things, but so can people who don't worship any gods. That makes being a cleric a little less comfortable. I'm particularly looking foward to playing a Sovereign Host cleric, because it takes a lot of faith to believe in the traditional gods in the face of religions whose power is manifested more visibly (the Silver Flame, the Undying Court). The Silver Flame is the exciting, sexy religion. Finding a way to show how the Sovereigns are "better" is a challenge I'm looking forward to.