Tempest Tecnique Question

[abyssaldeath]

Not strictly true, since you can take a feat to make the staff offhand on both sides, or you can take a feat to turn the spiked chain into a double weapon.

I guess what gets me is that the double weapons used to be better than martial weapons, like an exotic weapon should be, and now most of them are tough to get working with a Tempest Fighter. Since being Offhand is what gives them +1 to hit and +2 damage, a double weapon is really only useful to them now on one end.

Jay

Well, the upside to the errata Double Weapons is now when they are enchanted both sides benefit from the magic properties. Saves some gold for other magic items especially when building higher level PC's.

I like the new version better myself. They used to be a non-choice for Tempest Fighters and now they actually compete with other weapons.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not strictly true, since you can take a feat to make the staff offhand on both sides, or you can take a feat to turn the spiked chain into a double weapon.

I guess what gets me is that the double weapons used to be better than martial weapons, like an exotic weapon should be, and now most of them are tough to get working with a Tempest Fighter. Since being Offhand is what gives them +1 to hit and +2 damage, a double weapon is really only useful to them now on one end.

Jay

Yeah, the problem is before it was just the be-all and end-all option for all two-weapon fighting characters pretty much. Now the situation is more like there are still specific character builds that can utilize them, but there are other valid choices out there. Double sword and Urgrosh in particular were a bit too good. DS is still a good choice for say a Melee focused Beastmaster or some rogue builds. Urgrosh is still good if you want to romp with RoB (still not a bad option even if it has lost some of its luster) etc.

In general the real utility of these things now is the ability to treat them as 2h weapons. A character can have a double axe, use it like a nice Waraxe, and then whip off a Dual Strike with it. As for a tempest fighter with one of these? Well, he's probably mostly making single weapon attacks, so just use the off end of the weapon. Its now more of an option to let you deal an occasional dual weapon attack vs the ultimate cheesy weapon.

Honestly though I do think they should have left the main end of the double sword 1d8.

 

[Turtlejay]

It is the 'offhand' property. So a lot of these are still useful to Rangers and other characters who want to use them, but a fighter is stuck. The fighter weapon talent choices are 1-handed, 2-handed, or tempest. None of the big double weapons will let you use the weapon talent with *both* ends. That is what breaks it for me. Because your class feature is tied to that keyword, and now double weapons don't have that going for them, tempest fighters have that option eliminated.

I agree 100% that before the nerf, most of them were broken. Without a doubt, they needed a fix. I just don't really like this fix.

Jay

 

[Destil]

It is the 'offhand' property. So a lot of these are still useful to Rangers and other characters who want to use them, but a fighter is stuck. The fighter weapon talent choices are 1-handed, 2-handed, or tempest. None of the big double weapons will let you use the weapon talent with *both* ends. That is what breaks it for me. Because your class feature is tied to that keyword, and now double weapons don't have that going for them, tempest fighters have that option eliminated.

I agree 100% that before the nerf, most of them were broken. Without a doubt, they needed a fix. I just don't really like this fix.

Jay

They suck for most rangers who care too, since the two-weapon build means they don't want 'off hand' weapons. For archery and beastmaster rangers they're okay.

I still dislike defensive in general, since it's too easy to get AC on par with a shield without the check penalty (just add Two Weapon Defense), but at least now they're a die behind on damage vs. longsword and shield, which is reasonable. You can actually make a good, mobile fighter with nice defenses using a double sword, and while your single target damage won't be great you'll deal out more damage to two or more targets.

 

[the8bitdeity]

Not strictly true, since you can take a feat to make the staff offhand on both sides, or you can take a feat to turn the spiked chain into a double weapon.

I anticipate this being errated to come in line with the AV, but yes for the current moment they are indeed exceptions.

 

[eamon]

I think WotC over-nerfed them. Who's supposed to use these things? If you're really aiming for defenses, just stick a mage's cutting wheel or parrying dagger in your off hand (which tends to be used much less than your primary weapon)

For example, you could be running around with a triple-headed flail in one hand and a mage's cutting wheel in the other. Even if the mage's cutting wheel is 5 level's below your primary weapon, you're still almost certain to come out ahead: a triple headed flail (used for most of your attacks) is +3 1d10 vs. the double flail's +2 1d8.

Of course, tempests can't really use many of these weapons very well anyhow, since they're not off-hand on one of the ends. One of the best remaining options for them is the double sword.

The urgrosh looks attractive, but since both ends are of different types, that secondary end is probably no better than just having a parrying dagger in your offhand. You're unlikely to want to spend twice the feats in specializing for both ends, plus a feat for the weapon itself.

I suppose it's only reasonable that the defensive qualities on most of these weapons comes at a cost. But this cost is so steep that I wonder whether anyone will take it - except the double sword for tempests, which is just an easy way to control costs.

If I were a beastmaster ranger, say, I'd much rather switch to a bastard sword primary/drow long-knife secondary than any of these options. Sure, it's not defensive. And your secondary weapon may require the mage's enchantment, and may be a +1 behind. But, in return, you get a +3 1d10 weapon primary (which outclasses the double weapons in general) and a thrown option to boot.

 

[Starfox]

For a tempest, the one point of extra damage you get wielding an off-hand weapon is matched by the larger die type a normal weapon is likely to have. Compare the TWF Quarterstaff (d8+2/d8+2) (average 6.5/6.5 - total 13) to the new Ungrosh (d6+2/d12+1) (Average 5.5/7.5 - total 13). Since more of your attacks use the primary end the Ungrosh is still the better weapon, and WAY more powers key of spears and axes than of staves. Of course, the staff has other merits, especially for casters. It is still a very viable weapon.

The total effect is that Tempest fighters now have many, many weapon options. the Ungrosh is probably one of the best, but quarterstaff, 2 katars, a falchion and a parrying dagger, all viable and playable options. There are loads of options even without multiclassing into ranger for two full-size weapons.

 

[eamon]

The total effect is that Tempest fighters now have many, many weapon options. the Ungrosh is probably one of the best, but quarterstaff, 2 katars, a falchion and a parrying dagger, all viable and playable options. There are loads of options even without multiclassing into ranger for two full-size weapons.

Problem with the urgrosh: you need expertise twice, weapon focus twice, mastery feats or whatnot twice etc. Essentially you're just wielding an axe in your primary hand and a spear off hand, and there's not much overlap (also stat-prereq wise) between those. That makes the quarterstaff attractive again; or, for that matter, the double sword: these actually have comparable damage/proficiency bonus levels and both ends are the same weapon group.

It's probably doable, but it'll cost you a lot of feats to pull off that might be better spent elsewhere. You'd have to compare builds to really tell, but my instinct is that it's dangerously close to a trap.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Problem with the urgrosh: you need expertise twice, weapon focus twice, mastery feats or whatnot twice etc. Essentially you're just wielding an axe in your primary hand and a spear off hand, and there's not much overlap (also stat-prereq wise) between those. That makes the quarterstaff attractive again; or, for that matter, the double sword: these actually have comparable damage/proficiency bonus levels and both ends are the same weapon group.

It's probably doable, but it'll cost you a lot of feats to pull off that might be better spent elsewhere. You'd have to compare builds to really tell, but my instinct is that it's dangerously close to a trap.

But for most purposes your tempest fighter will be using the axe end of the weapon. The spear end is just there for those times when you want to use Dual Strike and at least you haven't had to pay to enchant it. There are also some feats you can combine with the right weapon enchantments etc to get extra effectiveness from either end. Overall it works out to be pretty much what it should be, a weapon option that will get used in preference to others some of the time, but not for 100% of all dual wielder's like before.

 

[Turtlejay]

Right. It is a resource use issue. And no, an Urgosh's higher damage die does not make up for -1 to hit. Would you take Power Attack it if were -1 to attack for +1 damage? I can't see that as a good benefit for *anyone*.

The loss of the Offhand keyword is what stings more than the other nerfs. The issue where all ends of the weapon counted for all keywords was clearly not working. Dropping the damage die on the spear end of the urgosh and the main end of the sword was fine. The loss of the Offhand keyword hurts for tempest fighters.

That being said, the build of tempest fighter seems to emphasize the mobile skirmisher more than the junior Two Weapon Ranger. The nerfs to Double Weapons make the choices available more indicative of that aspect. With Dex as a recommended Secondary, the Double Sword is an easy choice to make, same with the Spiked Chain. Of course, that and the Staff are on the chopping block, so who knows what the story will be once they are examined.

Jay