Tempests destroying two-hander style?

[Lord Sessadore]

Hmmm ... I'm not exactly sure where you're getting your numbers from, aurance. I did the same calculations you did with the same assumptions and got VERY different numbers. Like so:

Assuming a 30th level fighter with +8 Str, where a +2 prof weapon gives 45% chance to hit, 50% chance to miss, with the 5% chance to crit. With a +3 prof weapon and fighter weapon talent, this means 55% chance to hit, 40% chance to miss, and 5% crit. With Heavy Blade Mastery, we get 10% crit, 40% hit, 50% miss.

Agile Tempest  = +3 damage w/ 2 weapons, +4 with off-hand; +1 attack with off-hand (from Tempest Technique)
Weapon Focus   = +3 damage
Pit Fighter    = +4 damage
Iron Armbands  = +6 damage
Marked Scourge = +4 damage
Weapon         = +6 damage
-------------------------------------
                 +23 2H (+31 with +8 Str)
                 +26 tempest
                 +27 tempest off-hand

Reaping Strike with Fullblade:
0.40 x 31 on miss
0.50 x 2d12+31 (avg 44) on hit (range of 33-55)
0.10 x 55+3d12+6d8 (avg 101.5) on crit
--------------------------
12.4 + 22 + 10.15 = 44.55

*******************************************

Dual Strike with Double Sword:
main hand (-1 atk):
0.45 x 0 on miss
0.45 x 2d8+26 (avg 35) on hit (range of 28-42)
0.10 x 42+6d8 (avg 69) on crit
--------------------------
0 + 15.75 + 6.9 = 22.65

Off hand:
0.40 x 0 on miss
0.50 x 2d8+27 (avg 36) on hit (range of 29-43)
0.10 x 43+6d8 (avg 70) on crit
--------------------------
0 + 18 + 7 = 25

Total = 47.65

Notes:
- I couldn't find anything that said you do not add static damage to the Miss: damage from reaping strike. And frankly, that's the only way it remains even remotely useful in the epic tier. If this is not the case, then miss damage goes down to 3.6, bringing total damage to 32.9 and putting 2-handers clearly in the dust.
- On Double Swords: If you'll kindly look at this post, you'll see that the intent was for one end to be the main, heavy blade end, and the other to be the off-hand, light blade side. I'll assume you take 2xWeapon Focus to make things easier.
- Marked Scourge just looks broken to me - let Pit Fighters add 2xWis to every attack? Yeah right, not in my game. But that's not the point of this particular debate, so I included it.
- Gave the 2h fighter a Reckless weapon too - with a fullblade (high crit) it makes much more sense than a Bloodclaw weapon. Max crits as much as possible.
- I didn't really do any original research for the above, just used pretty much the same stuff aurance did.
- I don't have time to work up the Stormwarden's damage. Someone else can do that

So, with those assumptions, the tempest fighter is ahead by 3.1 DPR. Not a huge difference, if you ask me. And that's with at-wills. Try that out with lvl 29 dailies (there's a 2-hander's daily that does 8[W], you know ) I don't think it's anything to be too concerned about. And no, I didn't do Brash Strike with a mordenkrad, but I don't think it'll be too much better. Hammer Rhythm specifically states you don't get any bonuses to the miss damage, so it will be about +8 at the very most.

Also, if you decrease the hit chance by 5%, tempest is only ahead by 0.2 DPR. Important to note, since if you're fighting something ahead of your level (like, say, Orcus) your hit chance will go down, which will increase the expected damage of the 2-hander vs. the tempest.

 

[aurance]

Don't forget that the Great Weapon Fighter get's a +1 to hit from the Weapon Training Class Feature ... not that it will change much. Anyway can you also try a Tempest Fighter with Short-Swords or Katars?

My (unproven) belief is that the Tempest Fighter would be ok without the double weapons (which give you not only the damage of a non-off-hand-weapon but also a defense bonus and makes it easier to enchant).

I've included the class feature in my calculations.

Using short swords instead of a double sword does not decrease damage very much. The problem with double sword is not that it causes an overwhelming amount of damage; it's that a single weapon qualifies you for too many things and makes several other weapons essentially obsolete.

The thing that really cranks up the Tempest Fighter's damage (and the Ranger's damage) is the combination of static damage bonuses with multiple attacks. This is also why warlocks lag behind in damage compared to other strikers and tempest fighters - they have no multi-attacks, and no flat +X to damage items or feats from non-core source books thus far, unlike the fighter, rogue or ranger.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Don't forget that the Great Weapon Fighter get's a +1 to hit from the Weapon Training Class Feature ... not that it will change much. Anyway can you also try a Tempest Fighter with Short-Swords or Katars?

My (unproven) belief is that the Tempest Fighter would be ok without the double weapons (which give you not only the damage of a non-off-hand-weapon but also a defense bonus and makes it easier to enchant).

Yes, a tempest with short swords or katars would be a little lower. At level 30, I'm not sure it would make a huge difference, to be honest.

I included the Weapon Training feature in my calculations (reflected by the -1 to attack with the main hand of the tempest fighter, since tempests also get a +1 to attack, but only with off-hand weapons). Just for clarity

 

[aurance]

First, your math is off. Please double check. For instance:

this means 55% chance to hit, 40% chance to miss, and 5% crit. With Heavy Blade Mastery, we get 10% crit, 40% hit, 50% miss.

You somehow got your miss chance to increase by adding HBM. ( EDIT: Sorry, I see that you just mistyped the % hit part. ) You also didn't add any damage from Reckless or Bloodclaw on hits.

- I couldn't find anything that said you do not add static damage to the Miss: damage from reaping strike. And frankly, that's the only way it remains even remotely useful in the epic tier. If this is not the case, then miss damage goes down to 3.6, bringing total damage to 32.9 and putting 2-handers clearly in the dust.

You do not add anything to Miss: damage, if the feat or item specifies adding to damage roll, as there is never a damage roll when you miss. However, Pit Fighter's +wis modifier would add, it would seem. I've edited the above to reflect this; added +1.6 DPR to Mr. Reaping Strike. Reckless Weapon / Bloodclaw Weapon / Iron Bands / Marked Scourge / Weapon Focus / Pretty much anything else do not add to miss damage. And as you say, this does clearly put 2-handers in the dust.

- On Double Swords: If you'll kindly look at this post, you'll see that the intent was for one end to be the main, heavy blade end, and the other to be the off-hand, light blade side. I'll assume you take 2xWeapon Focus to make things easier.

See my post above. Damage wise, this does not make a whole lot of difference. (I think you agree with me on this, as per your post above.) And besides, we are talking by RAW here.

- Marked Scourge just looks broken to me - let Pit Fighters add 2xWis to every attack? Yeah right, not in my game. But that's not the point of this particular debate, so I included it.

Again, RAW, so I appreciate that you left it in. For what it's worth, I also think that feat is bollocks.

- Gave the 2h fighter a Reckless weapon too - with a fullblade (high crit) it makes much more sense than a Bloodclaw weapon. Max crits as much as possible.

It does not. Bloodclaw deals more damage than Reckless for a Great Weapon Fighter. +18 damage on hit is better than +12 on hit, and the drop from +6d8 critical dice to +6d6 is not nearly enough to beat that.

 

[Obryn]

Aurance, I completely buy the difference in at-wills. However, that's a scenario guaranteed to hobble the great-weapon fighter and favor the guy who

By 30th level, encounters and dailies are going to be flying left and right, which is where a higher [w] gets progressively more valuable.

There are also some intangibles to take into account - such as the potency of various powers. I am sure my cursory glance is missing a few, but the powers requiring a 2-handed weapon are much, much beefier than those requiring (or even utilizing) two weapons.

-O

 

[Skallgrim]

I'd say that in my estimation, Battlerager did a lot more damage to the Great Weapon fighter than Tempest did, but then again, many people regard it as broken.


However, Tempest does seem to be too good, simply because of the availability of the double weapons (depending on how you read their vague descriptions). The weapon damage boosts for Tempest aren't per [W], so while they are very competitive at low levels, once your At Will and Basic Attacks go to 2[W], they are lower damage, excpet for those pesky double weapons. Heck, the Urgrosh lets you use a d12 off-hand weapon!

It gives you enough of a damage disparity to have one attack versus two, but when the guy with two attacks can do as much damage with each one as you can, the balance flies right out the window.

 

[deleteme123456]

I did some quick math without accounting for magic items (since everyone's DM is different in what they allow), and I worked from a base of 45% to hit with no proficiency. Assume all characters started with an 18 in their primary stat and increase every time. The only feats allowed are weapon proficiency, weapon focus, agile tempest, lethal hunter, deadly axe, hammer rhythm, scimitar dance, two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, [weapon type] mastery. (Armor feats that don't change your damage are allowed too, but really don't change much.) This baseline allows for a comparison without some potentially over-powered items and feats, since I don't think I've heard anyone clamoring for banning any of these, except possibly the double weapons, and this will give some insight into whether that's useful or not.

For cases that it matters, a secondary attribute is assumed to be 2 below (mod 1 below) your primary attribute.

I ignore paragon path selection because in most cases, you could pick up any path you wanted (ignoring the current problems with ranger PP and ranger multiclass)

We'll compare armor against somebody in Scale without specialization and no shield as a baseline, values will be + or - vs that guy.

Set 1 (Level 11: +3 weapons, +2 focus, +5 ability mod)
Case 1:
The Mordenkrad Fighter with hammer rhythm
To hit bonus: +3 (+2 weapon +1 class)
Normal (non-crit) hit %: 55%
[W] value (avg/max): 8/12
Normal hit avg dmg: 18 = 8 (wpn) + 2 (focus) + 3 (magic) + 5 (str)
Crit %: 5%
Crit avg (assumes +1d6 per plus from magic weapon): 32.5 (=12 + 10 (see previous) + 3.5*3)
Miss %: 40%
Miss dmg: 4
Total avg dmg / turn: 13.125
Weapon feats: Mordenkrad prof., Hammer rhythm, WF: Hammers
Armor: Plate
Armor feats: Plate
Armor vs Scale guy: +1
Total feats: 5 (out of 7)


For the others, I'll not spell everything out as much:

Tempest w/Dual Short Swords
1-Hit: 60%
1-Hit dmg: 16.5 = 3.5 (wpn) + 3 (magic) + 2 (focus) + 3 (class/agile)
1-Crit dmg: 29.5
avg dmg/turn: 23.19 [TWF bonus approximated as "+0.5 if at least one hit"]
Wpn feats: focus: light blade, twf
Armor feats: None
Armor type: Chain
AC vs Scale guy: Even (TWD makes it up, and gives you a +reflex to boot)
Feats used: 1! out of 7

Tempest with a "fixed" double sword that has no off-hand but is a heavy blade on both ends:
Bottom line: 20.69 (so if you add one off-hand and simply argue that half your hits are with that hand so you can get 1.5 bonus damage on average if you hit at least once, it comes to 22.01)
Wpn feats: 2
AC feats: None
AC type: Chain
AC vs Scale guy: +1 (defensive weapon and TWD)

Tempest with a "RAW?" double sword that is off-hand and heavy on both ends:
24.59
Feats: same as above

Ranger with double sword (assume one weapon focus feat cover both ends):
27.4625
Feats: prof: dobule sword, focus: heavy blade, lethal hunter, chain, scale, twf, twd [at least he got toughness for free... so now his HP are closer to the fighter!]
AC vs Scale guy: +2 (but used every feat!)

Ranger with double axe (gives up scale prof for deadly axe):
27.45875 (so close... but you'll be better at epic!)
AC vs Scale guy: +1

Ranger with two waraxes:
28.75875
AC Vs Scale guy: even (no defensive weapon, used deadly axe instead of scale)

Ranger with two bastard swords:
28.7625 (again so very close)
AC Vs Scale guy: +1 (he can use scale prof. instead of deadly axe)

Ranger with two scimitars and the dance:
28.14
AC vs Scale guy: +1 (weapon proficiency -> scimitar dance)

That fighter is getting awfully close to those strikers. And most feats or items that could help one, help both (except the horribly broken +wis vs marked enemies ).

How's it look at level 21 with demigod, +5 weapons, +8 ability, 2[w] attacks, and +3 focus? Everyone gets their mastery feat as well so crit is 19-20.

The morderkrad guy is very sad and doesn't want to talk about it. 24.55.
The tempest fighters are a little lower now, although a d8 offhand weapon would still be quite powerful. The 2 shortswords guy can do 40.04 while the d8 double offhand (etc, bascially the most broken version of a double sword) guy does 43.04.

The double sword ranger does 48.655. Double axe is better at 50.56, and two waraxe is better yet at 53.56. Scimitars and bastard swords are very very close* at 51.025 and 51.455.

*High crit is interesting. Do you get to add +enh and +focus (etc.) again? I wasn't sure, but could adjust the spreadsheet if needed.

 

[aurance]

Aurance, I completely buy the difference in at-wills. However, that's a scenario guaranteed to hobble the great-weapon fighter and favor the guy who

By 30th level, encounters and dailies are going to be flying left and right, which is where a higher [w] gets progressively more valuable.

There are also some intangibles to take into account - such as the potency of various powers. I am sure my cursory glance is missing a few, but the powers requiring a 2-handed weapon are much, much beefier than those requiring (or even utilizing) two weapons.

-O

That's a good point. I'm pretty sure the Tempest encounter powers beat out others in damage, but there are no fighter daily attacks that require two melee weapons, so the advantage there goes to the Great Weapon Fighter. The existence of a [w]=d12 off-hand double weapon (Urgrosh) throws this for a loop a little bit though.

 

[Obryn]

That's a good point. I'm pretty sure the Tempest encounter powers beat out others in damage, but there are no fighter daily attacks that require two melee weapons, so the advantage there goes to the Great Weapon Fighter. The existence of a [w]=d12 off-hand double weapon (Urgrosh) throws this for a loop a little bit though.

Yeah, that's true, too, but when you're comparing an Urgosh vs. another Superior weapon, damage-wise it's a bit behind nevertheless in other aspects - Brutal, +1 to-hit, etc.

Also, I forgot to mention how multiple [w] powers get even sweeter for high-dice characters when you consider they're critting on 10% of all attacks.

I don't doubt Tempest fighters have an edge on Great Weapon PHB fighters; I just don't think the Great Weapon PHB fighter is as much a sucker bet as looking at their At-Will DPR would indicate.

-O

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Don't know about tempest fighters. But Barbarians and Battleragers I'm sure will put a dent in the number of Greatweapon fighters. Greatweapon fighter attracts a certain group of players. Barbarian/Battlerager attracts the same group, but with more fun offers.

I think Tempest actually opens up the fighter class to a different set of interests. Not sure if it's guilty of making anything obsolete.

I would suspect that battlerager and barbarian have killed the two handed weapon talent fighter for hammer (and possibly axe) wielding fighters. Any great weapon fighter that was built to use hammers already had a high constitution and would gain great benefits from either the barbarian or the battlerager class features while only losing +1 to hit. Especially for battlerager, it's a pretty simple drag and drop operation.

Now great weapon fighters that did not use hammers (or axes) are in a much stickier boat. At the moment, neither battlerager nor barbarian has anything to offer (for instance) a heavy flail or fullblade wielding fighter. Getting your con mod in temp hit points isn't too attractive when that con mod is only one or two and won't be going up much in the future. So Str/Dex great weapon fighters would probably stick with weapon talent--if they bother to show up at all. The problem of course, shows up if they cannot stack up to Tempest fighters for either offense or defense, in which case, they exist as a trap for players who like an image but don't realize that the mechanics do not support such characters--or who didn't read the handwriting on the wall in the PHB (where pretty much all of the great weapon favoring abilities except for Rain of Blows rewarded a Str/Con focus and did little) and created such a character before martial power came out.

If Divine Power displays the same continuance of PHB preferences, it will still leave strength-focused paladins without a daily power at 9th level.