Template Stacking

[Lord Pendragon]

For example why cant there be combinations such as: Elemental Outsider, Undead Outsider, Undead Plant, Plant Outsider, Dragon Outsider, Undead Dragon, etc?
Just a thought...

Such critters exist, they merely have one Type instead of two. An undead plant is merely [Undead]. An extraplanar dragon is an [Outsider]. An elemental outsider is an [Outsider]. Basically, some Types are more inclusive than others.

What you seem to actually be asking is: "why can't there be critters that gain all the bennies granted by several Types?" I think the reason is that it'd be complicated and it's unnecessary. Monsters can be simply given any extra abilities the writer thinks they need, and PCs should be gaining their abilities mostly through class levels anyway.

 

[Khaalis]

Such critters exist, they merely have one Type instead of two. An undead plant is merely [Undead]. An extraplanar dragon is an [Outsider]. An elemental outsider is an [Outsider]. Basically, some Types are more inclusive than others.

What you seem to actually be asking is: "why can't there be critters that gain all the bennies granted by several Types?" I think the reason is that it'd be complicated and it's unnecessary. Monsters can be simply given any extra abilities the writer thinks they need, and PCs should be gaining their abilities mostly through class levels anyway.

Well, I'm not trying to necessarily gain all the "bennies" but the traits are defiing characteristics of the being. For example an Undead Plant, being only undead, loses the plant traits of Low-Light Vision and its immunity to Polymorph. Granted this isnt a huge loss, but it just seems odd.

However, the real questions come into play when you are gaining advantages from Class Levels, but one of those class levels changes your type. In this particular case from Undead to Plant. From what I have seen and read so far, I would say that the character would lose all Undead Traits and gain Plant Traits instead, but they would retain any Non-"Trait" advantage granted by the undead template as they do not lose the template, only the traits desginated by their current type.

Is that about right?

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm going to try common sense if something becomes complicated oterwise.

Base
Human = Humanoid
Woodling (Inhereted) = Retain Type (Humanoid)
Half-Fey (Inhereted) = Fey type

Then add:
Spellwarped (Applied) = Aberration type

Gravetouched Ghoul (Applied) = Undead type
Evolved Undead = (Applied) = Retain Type (Undead)
10th level of Talontar Blightlord (FR) = Divine power grants change to Plant Type

I see no problem with the type until the plant:

- born as Fey
- turned into Aberration (ok to think that aberrations could sometimes be transformed from a base something-else)
- turned into Undead (the Aberration died and returned in undeath, no problems)

Then the plant thing is hard to handle. I could see different options:
1) turns into an Undead vegetable-like creature: type remains Undead (because it's still dead!), but may get some extra benefits from being plant (with small "p"); you could give it some plant-typical immunities for example
2) ceases to be dead completely, meaning that the divine powers has restored it to life like a resurrection-kind spell: type switches to Plant, losing all immunities/benefits of being undead but gaining full immunities/benefits of being Plant (with big "P")

IIRC, this is what you would get:

1) No constitution
Darkvision
Immunity to mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, crititcal hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, ability damage, fatigue, exhaustion, all effects with Fort save (unless affect objects), massive damage
Cannot heal damage naturally, switched effects of positive/negative energy, can be turned/rebuked
Immediately destroyed at 0hp (never unconscious)
No need to breathe, eat, sleep

2) Low-light vision
Immunity to mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits, polymorph
No need to sleep

Basically if you decided to stack everything you would still have the same situation as remaining Undead, plus Low-light vision and total immunity to polymorph (i.e. not only when a Fort save is involved). You can give these 2 little extras to the character, who overall is getting only a small benefit from that PrCl compared to what he would get if he was a living being.

OTOH I wouldn't mess at all with the proficiencies. IMHO it was a silly design mistake to make them "traits" instead of "features", since it doesn't make much sense to acquire all of them all of a sudden.

 

[Taloras]

Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a template, it cannot become something else.

By this rule, you do not become a plant. Gravetouched Ghoul is a template that changes its type to undead. By RAW, it cannot become a plant.

 

[JimAde]

Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a template, it cannot become something else.

By this rule, you do not become a plant. Gravetouched Ghoul is a template that changes its type to undead. By RAW, it cannot become a plant.

Taloras, can you point us at that rule? I don't know where to find it.

 

[Scion]

Going by this:

Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

Wouldnt he wind up being: Plant (augmented undead) ?

It was posted earlier but this seems to be the logical conclusion

 

[GeorgeFields]

Another thing to remember is that most templates can only be applied to certain types. For instance, the vampire can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Because of this, the order that they are applied play the vital role in what the outome is.

 

[Drowbane]

....purely a mental excercise for the fun of developing a certain string of characters...

Wow, I thought I was the only one who did that...

What is your take on how LA works with Gestalt?

As to your problem... Savage Species' bit on Template stacking is the only precident I know of that could answer this. Namely Undead would trump all the other types. So while that character would have a planty appearance, it would be type... U N D E A D. I bet it would have some fey and aberration in its looks too. In short, a freaky character.

Wouldnt he wind up being: Plant (augmented undead) ?

It was posted earlier but this seems to be the logical conclusion

Actually this sounds about right....

Your post reminded me of a character I played in RttToEE... a Stony (Mineral Warrior from Underdark), Feral (savage species) Thri Kreen (only about 5 different books...)... :shiver: 5 Natural attacks, Fast Healing 2, DR 8/Adamantine, +30 Jump... yeah, he was a superhero!

Forgive if I rambled a bit in my reply... just got home from work

 

[Taloras]

Taloras, can you point us at that rule? I don't know where to find it.

Page 143 of Savage Species. Top left of the page.

 

[JimAde]

Page 143 of Savage Species. Top left of the page.

Ah. That would explain my ignorance. I don't have Savage Species.

I will now depart the discussion, hanging my head in shame.