Template Stacking

[Khaalis]

Ok, here is a pretty odd request for rules clarification.

I am working on a rather sick 30th level Epic Gestalt build (purely a mental excercise for the fun of developing a certain string of characters). Anway, for the build in question, I have been looking at template stacking for some of the levels. The problem I am having is getting the rules straight for how the templates stack when it comes to changes to TYPE.

What carries over from one type to another? Are traits gained in a previous template retained? Or are they lost and replaced by the new type? What about Qualities?

Here is the build I am toying with right now.

Base
Human = Humanoid
Woodling (Inhereted) = Retain Type (Humanoid)
Half-Fey (Inhereted) = Fey type

Then add:
Spellwarped (Applied) = Aberration type

Gravetouched Ghoul (Applied) = Undead type
Evolved Undead = (Applied) = Retain Type (Undead)
10th level of Talontar Blightlord (FR) = Divine power grants change to Plant Type


So... What does this leave for Type traits?
In the end is the character an Undead Plant having both traits? Or do all of the undead traits vanish and are replaced by Plant traits? If my understanding is correct. Traits are retained unless replaced/superceded by a simlar ability.


Example:
The Human Woodling/Half-Fey (Fey Type) becomes Spellwarped (becomes Aberration type).

Fey Traits: Low-light vision, Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry, Proficient with whatever type of armor that it is described as wearing as well as all lighter types, Fey eat-sleep-breathe

Aberration Traits: Darkvision 60', Proficient with its natural weapons, If generally humanoid in form proficient with all simple weapons and any weapon it is described as using, Proficient with whatever type of armor that it is described as wearing as well as all lighter types, Aberrations eat-sleep-breathe


Now...
Does the character loose its Low-Light Vision and gain Darkvision instead? Or does it retain its Low-Light Vision and gain Darkvision as well?
Say the fey grants proficiency in short sword (pixie). Does it lose that proficiency when it becomes an aberration?


Thanks for any and all help to undersatand how this works.

 

[JimAde]

As I understand it (and I could be wrong) all type-related traits are replaced if the type changes, unless the template says the creature retains its previous type as augmented.

Honestly, though, I think you just have to use common sense (as applied to a fantasy problem anyway). So I could see the vision type changing, but I don't think the creature should lose type-granted proficiencies for example. In my opinion, if it's an innate ability it should get lost/replaced while if it's something learned it should be retained.

 

[Khaalis]

JimAde - Thanks for the reply.

So in your interpretation, what happens when the character goes from Undead to Plant?

Are they "living" again? Do they gain their CON back? Do all applied d12 HD revert back to normal HD or do they stay d12's since they are a condition of the template, not undead traits? Does the inability to be healed normally go away?

Also, how does "Augment" subtype really come into play?

Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

With this, my understanding is that the Undead simply ceases to be undead and becomes a Plant instead. All "Traits" of being Undead vanish but they retain the d12 HD increase, as well as any other abilities granted by the template that changed the type to Undead.

Is that about right?


Any input is appreciated. Just trying to wrap my mind around this since it isnt well spelled out in the books.

 

[JimAde]

I think that's right. What is the in-game justification for going from "Undead" to "Plant"? I'm not familiar with the Talontar Blightlord class. Does the character still qualify to take levels in it after he becomes undead?

This is why I never put more than one template on anything.

 

[Khaalis]

I think that's right. What is the in-game justification for going from "Undead" to "Plant"? I'm not familiar with the Talontar Blightlord class. Does the character still qualify to take levels in it after he becomes undead?

This is why I never put more than one template on anything.

The in-game justification from Undead to Plant is a wholely unique situation. It is because the Talontar Blightlord (specialist priest of Talona - FR) at 10th level grants a "transofrmation" ability similar to many other PrC's such as becoming an Outsider at the end of Divine Disciple, etc. At the end of TB you become of the Plant type. There is no restriction saying that can only be applied to certain "types". Any type who takes this level last would become a Plant, even if they were an Outsider, Dragon, etc.

As for becoming a TB, there is also no restriction based on your type. As long as you are an undead that can take class levels, you can take levels on TB (assuming you Do meet the prerequisites). In this case the Gravetouched Ghoul is not a mindless controlled undead like the standard ghoul, instead being a free-willing intelligent undead. Makes for a nasty combination. I am just unsure how to work the transformation from Undead to Plant.

 

[Taloras]

I remember seeing somewhere a list of which types trumped other types....but cant recall where. Effectively, with a template, you could change from this to this, but not reverse..

 

[Verequus]

I remember seeing somewhere a list of which types trumped other types....but cant recall where. Effectively, with a template, you could change from this to this, but not reverse..

I believe, this was in Savage Species. Maybe it is also in the 3.5 DMG, too. If I remember correctly, then Outsider and Undead trump everything else - you won't go back to Plant type.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I believe, this was in Savage Species. Maybe it is also in the 3.5 DMG, too. If I remember correctly, then Outsider and Undead trump everything else - you won't go back to Plant type.

Savage Species has a "Type Hierachy" that puts different types on tiers. I don't have my book in front of me (I'm at work ) but IIRC top tier is:Outsider, Undead, Construct. Next tier is: dragon, elemental, plant. I don't remember the rest, but you get the idea. Once you reach a certain tier with respect to your type, you can go to a lower tier.

 

[Taloras]

Construct, Outsider and Undead are at the top of the Type Pyramid. Once you become undead, you cant change that. Period. Page 143 of Savage Species.

 

[Khaalis]

Construct, Outsider and Undead are at the top of the Type Pyramid. Once you become undead, you cant change that. Period. Page 143 of Savage Species.

Well I dont have SS hady to check the actual wording of the ruling, but to me this seems only partially true. In Template Stacking this is 100% true, and is supported by the fact that every template states what "Types" can be affected by the new template.

However, what this does not take into account, is PrC's that grant a Type as a class ability regardless of any other ruling. There are no prerequisites for an assigned type from a PrC, and in my understanding these types of actions ("You become Type X") trump any rules assigned to templates.

For example, an Aasimar is an Outsider. If an Aasimar caster takes the Elemental Savant PrC to level 10, their type would change from Outsider (native) to Elemental (chosen element).

Thus I would assume the same to be true of an Udead that takes a class that at level 10 changes their type to Outsider, Plant, Construct, Elemental, etc.


On a personal side note however, I might seriously consider a House Rule that states in some instances, a character can have more than one type's traits. For example why cant there be combinations such as: Elemental Outsider, Undead Outsider, Undead Plant, Plant Outsider, Dragon Outsider, Undead Dragon, etc?
Just a thought...