Templating Summoned Monster Feats

[Rackhir]

I was talking with my DM Shilsen and looking at ways to make a summmoning oriented wiz more interesting. One idea that occured to me was making the ability to add or substitute templates on summoned creatures into various feats, sort of specilized metamagic feats.

For example adding the Half-dragon template to a creature would require a minimum of Summon Monster IV. But adding a Paragon Template would be an epic level feat.

Points to consider - Should some of the templates require a higher level slot to be placed on a creature. Half-Dragon is more powerful generally than just adding fiendish or celestial. So might it not require a +1 higher level spell slot?

Obviously applying specific templates can create problems. Fiendish Trolls for example have energy resistance to fire and acid IIRC, which makes it very difficult to kill them.

So comments? Suggestions? Brickbats?

 

[Kelleris]

Hmm... This is an interesting idea. Some thoughts:

You would definitely need to have an adjustment to the spell level to have the feat apply a powerful template. I think you'd want the feat to basically buy you a bonus CR for the new spell level. For the higher-level summon spells, which generally summon a monster with a CR of the earliest wizard caster level -4, you'd want the feat to bump the modified summon spell up to summoning a monster with a CR equal to the earliest level a wizard can cast it -3.

For instance, the half-dragon is a +2 CR template. If you add that to a summon monster spell, it makes the monster's CR average into the earliest wizard caster level -2, assuming no level bump for the metamagic feat. That's a bit too powerful, so you would probably assign a +1 spell level adjustment for the metamagic feat. Of course, this means you want to find templates that have an odd-numbered CR adjustment for optimal powergaming/fairness. (Depends on whether your the DM or the player.) :\ Odd, but it makes the math better.

Another way to balance it would be having such a feat, say Summon Half-Dragon Monster, force a percentage chance or caster level check to control the summoned monster. Fail and it attacks randomly or heads straight for you. That would put some of the classic "summoners are really powerful but generally end up eaten by their own goons" flavor back in, which D&D unfortunately tends to lack.

Another point is that I would love to use this idea and make a Sudden feat, along with the "summon specific creature" variant. Then, 1/day, when you really need it, you can use that summon monster IX slot to summon something really nasty, almost up to your personal CR. Like, say, the Weaver of Nightmares, a colossal monstrous half-fiend, half-shadow-dragon spider kitted out with legbands of protection +5 and an intelligent (and loyal to you) vicious amulet of mighty fanging +5 of venom enhancement.

Another thing I've done in the past that you might consider is changing Leadership into a summoning feat. I tried this in a previous game, where a character took the feat (Summon Consort) and used it to summon a character level -2 cohort with his highest-level summon monster slots. That made for some fun RP too, since I got to play around with a relationship with a tiefling rogue (herald for an Abyssal army) native to the Abyss whom I could only attempt to influence in short bursts. The game never lasted long enough for me to make the planned trip to retrieve her from the Lower Planes, though.

 

[Sammael]

This is exactly what Greenbound Summoning from Lost Empires of Faerûn does: the caster may apply the greenbound creature template to every animal summoned with summon nature's ally spells, at no increase to the spell level whatsoever. Greenbound creatures are CR+2, and a strong CR+2 at that.

 

[trentonjoe]

We allow Conjurerers to swap out the fiendish/celestial template with the elemental templates from Manual of Planes. Makes for neat stuff.....

The vermin types end up with an intelligence so if you have some time you can give them feats and stuff.

I happen to be quite fond of the Earth Wolverine that I summon with Summon Monster III.

Hope that helps!

 

[Angel Tarragon]

How about:

Fiendish Summoning [Metamagic]
You are capable of summoning fiendish creatures.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spel, the creature summoned has half-fiend template. A Fiendish Summoning spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

Celestial Summoning [Metamagic]
You are capable of summoning heavenly creatures.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spell, the creature summoned has half-celestial template. A Celestian Summoning spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

Transcendant Summoning [Metamagic]
The creatues you summon are the epitome of their kind.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spell, the creature summoned has paragon template. A Transcendant Summoning spell takes up a spell slot nine levels higher than the spells actual level.

Draconic Summons [Metamagic]
You are capable of summoning creatures of draconic lineage.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spell, the creature summoned has half-dragon template. A Draconic Summons spell takes up a spell slot two levels higher than the spells actual level.

 

[Rackhir]

How about:

Fiendish Summoning [Metamagic]
You are capable of summoning fiendish creatures.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spel, the creature summoned has half-fiend template. A Fiendish Summoning spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

Celestial Summoning [Metamagic]
You are capable of summoning heavenly creatures.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spell, the creature summoned has half-celestial template. A Celestian Summoning spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

Transcendant Summoning [Metamagic]
The creatues you summon are the epitome of their kind.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spell, the creature summoned has paragon template. A Transcendant Summoning spell takes up a spell slot nine levels higher than the spells actual level.

Draconic Summons [Metamagic]
You are capable of summoning creatures of draconic lineage.
Prerequisite: Able to cast Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster
Benefit: When you cast a summoning spell, the creature summoned has half-dragon template. A Draconic Summons spell takes up a spell slot two levels higher than the spells actual level.

I think perhaps that it might be best to merge the fiendish and celestial templates into one feat. Along with a similar feat for the axiomatic/anarchic. Question is, should characters be permitted to chose which they summon or should it just simply be alignment based, ie if good and lawful you can summon celestial/axiomatic creatures.

Stacking templates though is not generally an additive process since you simply take the better of the two when applying them, iirc. Especially for the G/E-L/C templates which are all pretty identical. I guess you should probably be permitted to substitute the various alignment templates if you have the feat for that.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the templates raising the spell level though. There is a fairly wide range of cr for each summon monster spell and neither augment summoning or the alienist pseudonatural template affect the level of the spell. I think a better method is to limit the summon monster spell that it can effect. Fiendish/Celestial/Axiomatic/Anarchic would be one less than the highest you can cast. I think 9 levels higher is too high for the paragon though. I'd need to really check it out though to be sure.

Does anyone know if there is an actual rational behind which monsters wind up on the lists/levels? I need to check out some of the alternative summoning lists as well.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Ah well. Sorry you didnt like 'em. At least now you can't say that I didn't try to help.

 

[Rackhir]

Ah well. Sorry you didnt like 'em. At least now you can't say that I didn't try to help.

Trying to contribute, is appreciated. Even if I don't happen to like your suggestions, they at least present a point for discusion and might spawn some ideas.

 

[Kelleris]

I'm not sure I like the idea of the templates raising the spell level though.

Then, unless someone has some other clever suggestion, templates are not the way to do what you want to do.

There is a fairly wide range of [CR] for each summon monster spell...

If by "fairly wide range" you mean at most +/- 1, then yes.

...and neither Augment Summoning or the Alienist pseudonatural template affect the level of the spell.

That's because Augment Summoning does not provide nearly the boost that a template can. The half-dragon template gives you Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2 in stat boosts alone and actually improves the HD of the monster it's applies to. The feat by itself represents the cost you pay to power up the spell, similar to the non-adjustment of a spell's level by the Eschew Materials feat. Also note that Augment Summoning has one of the worst feats around, Spell Focus (conjuration), as a prerequisite.

The Alienist is a different case. First off, it's a class ability, so not directly comparable to a feat. Second, it replaces the more usual fiendish/celestial template most of the time, and only provides an actualy (pretty minor) boost to nontemplated outsiders. This is also another case where the fact that it takes up a class ability "slot" is sufficient to balance the effect.

I think a better method is to limit the summon monster spell that it can effect. Fiendish/Celestial/Axiomatic/Anarchic would be one less than the highest you can cast.

So all of your summon X spells are as powerful as your highest-level spell slot? That's a bad idea, comparable to letting a Wizard quicken all of his first-level spells once he hits 9th level. It effectivey means you have an absurdly deep pool of your highest-level spells. Bad, bad idea.

I think 9 levels higher is too high for the paragon though.

You need to check the paragon template out again, then. Smart mid-level characters would run away from a paragon housecat, unless they were feeling real lucky about rolling a natural 20 on the attack roll. The +15 CR adjustment of the paragon template suggests a +7 level adjust by the formula I mentioned in my earlier post. However, after thinking it over, I'm inclined to think that choosing the template you slap on whatever you summon is pretty powerl. Half-dragon alone becomes pick-your-own-energy-immunity, especially with the additional types from the Draconomicon. Heck, with those, you can make any creature you like aquatic if you need it to be, and they all acquire flight. So I hereby revise my recommendation to add one to the final spell level.

So adding the half-dragon template would be +2 levels to the spell: the original creature's CR goes up by 3. It is then effectively reduced by one to account for the opportunity cost of a feat slot. This makes it +2 CR total, for a +1 spell level. Add one to that, for +2 levels to the spell.

Does anyone know if there is an actual [rationale] behind which monsters wind up on the lists/levels?

No, they just pick them at random.

(Actually, as I said in my earlier post, after a break-point around summon monster IV they hold steady at a CR of [minimum level that a Wizard could cast the spell] - 4. Extremely tough meat shields like elementals get dropped a CR, as do any monsters which have exceptionally useful abilities for their CR (usually, powerful spell-likes). This is why you have the CR 12 Elder Elemental on the summon monster IX list. Any creature that can use a spell of equal or higher level than the summon monster spell used to summon it is generally excluded from the list. And, of course, outsiders and elementals only are allowed on the summon monster list. Oh, and some monsters with quasi-broken-for-PCs abilities are off too, such as anything that has cure light wounds at will or something.)

If you won't but the standard metamagic trope of adding spell levels, you have three options, as I see it:

1. Find an alternate metamgic system by checking Unearthed Arcana or similar sources and use that instead.

2. Take a sudden version of these feats for your character. Sure, it's only 1/day, but those'll be hella powerful monsters.

3. Switch from a metamagic model to a feat chain model. The problem here is that you don't ever want to have summon monster summon anything over a certain CR - probably Wizard level - 1 or so - so you need to boost other things, like base duration or the DC to dispel the creatures. A feat that lets the monster ignore protection from alignment and magic circle against alignment spells would be a worthwile investment. For more ideas, I recommend looking at the Constructor psionic PrC's feats, which can be found in the Mind's Eye compilation from a while back. (I'd link to it, but this browser refuses to let me use scripts and I can't remember the board code.)