Temporary Hit Points

[Sledge]

Stacking never dispels. If the temporary hit points of Spell A are greater than Spell B, and then Spell A expires, do you believe that Spell B is also gone irregardless of its duration? Or does Spell B suddenly give back more temporary HP?

 

[KarinsDad]

And you do not see a cumulative effect there, if you use them up one after the other?

Well, I do.

Of course, it's a little different, than regular stacking of spell effects, since these are "used up". Normally you just have two effects, one is greater and used, but they are not used up. The main effect of the temporary hit points is being used up and when you use them all up successively, you have had a cumulative effect, and therefore stacking.

It is not cumulative if you get hit once and only use up points from the best effect.

The problem is that this is not how stacking is defined in the game (or even in the FAQ when talking about stacking temporary hit points). You are putting in a new definition of stacking, just to ensure that only one effect EVER gets used.

As above, I see it similar to Resist Energy / Protection from Energy. These effects do not stack as well (they overlap) and any damage is applied to every single one, but only the highest actually protects, still they all get lessened by the damage (where applicable). If you have a 20 point resistance and a 10 point protection left, when you get 10 points of damage, the protection is gone, altho it wasn't the highest at that point.

Except that Resist Energy and Protection from Energy EXPLICTLY state how they work with relationship to each other.

Temporary hit points do not, so we are forced by default to use the standard Combining Magical Effect rules as found on page 171 and 172 of the PHB. We have no choice. We cannot invent NEW rules and call them RAW.

 

[Caliban]

If both spells are in effect simultaneously, why wouldn't both sets of temporary hit points be depleted whenever you take damage? Both sets of hit points are there at the same time.

What KD is proposing is a nightmare of bookkeeping and is NOT the way the rules work.

I think he is ignoring the established rules for stacking and overlapping (with the vary energy resistance spells being the prime example of those rules) and applying other rules in a way that was not intended.

 

[dcollins]

Like the multiple concealment bonuses, you don't get to make more than one concealment roll because you would be doing it twice at the same time.

Although the FAQ does say that you do get multiple "miss chance" rolls if you have both blink and invisibility up at the same time (3rd Ed. FAQ, p. 51).

 

[KarinsDad]

If both spells are in effect simultaneously, why wouldn't both sets of temporary hit points be depleted whenever you take damage? Both sets of hit points are there at the same time.

Except they are not both there at the same time. According to the "stacking rules":

"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."

Since temporary hit points do not stack, the actual temporary hit points points from one of the spells must be rendered useless by the other spell since we do not have a generic overlap spell rule.

Also:

"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies."

So, only the best of two Aid spells will work at a given time.

What KD is proposing is a nightmare of bookkeeping and is NOT the way the rules work.

Nonsense. Quote a stacking spell rule that applies to Temporary Hit points other than the ones I quoted already, can be found in the Combining Magical Effect rules in the PHB, and agrees with your "taking damage from both spells" theory.

PS. The bookkeeping is easy to do. You keep a total of each set of temporary hit points on your character sheet and subtract damage from the largest (i.e. the one in effect). Piece of cake. No tougher than keeping track of Psionic Power Points, Hit Points, and Nonlethal hit points at the same time.

I think he is ignoring the established rules for stacking and overlapping (with the vary energy resistance spells being the prime example of those rules) and applying other rules in a way that was not intended.

Is this the "intent of the rules" versus the rules issue again Caliban?

There are no (generic) overlapping spell rules except for specific sets of spells. For example, energy resistance spells. And even there, if you cast TWO Protections From Energy Fire on yourself, it will work like temporary hit points and only give you the better of the two spells (as per the RAW) because the overlapping rules only discuss Resist Energy with Protection From Energy, not Protection From Energy with Protection From Energy. Hence, we go back to the Combining Magical Effect rules. So much for your example.

You also do not apply the special rules for one set of spells to another, just because you don't like the rules as stated.


"Spell effects that do not stack may overlap, coexist independently, or render one another irrelevant, depending on their exact effects."

Unfortunately, WotC has not told us HOW it works for temporary hit points spells. They only told us that they do not stack. You can rule any of these above for your game.


I agree that it is a mess. But, it is a mess according to RAW, not according to KD's wishes.

We have to use the Combining Magical Effect rules as found on page 171 and 172 of the PHB since we have no other rules. And, the Combining Magical Effect rules section does have rules that are applicable, we just do not like them for this case.


I agree that WotC should fix this, but they haven't yet.

Come up with a counter solution that follows the Combining Magical Effect rules in the PHB (or some other source I could not find) and I will listen. But, don't tell me it is "NOT the way the rules work" unless you can do so.

 

[KarinsDad]

Although the FAQ does say that you do get multiple "miss chance" rolls if you have both blink and invisibility up at the same time (3rd Ed. FAQ, p. 51).

Yes, however, even the FAQ has a slight error there (according to RAW).

Blink and Invisibility (or Blink and Blur, or Blink and Displacement) both work at the same time because one is a miss chance for concealment and one (Blink) is an unnamed miss chance.

With one exception:

"If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment)."

In this case (attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures), you take the better of the two concealment miss chances due to the fact that they are the same type of miss chances.

Otherwise (as per the FAQ), you make two rolls. One for not being there (Blink) and one for concealment (other spell).


There are no rule that miss chances do not stack.

There is only a rule that concealment miss chances do not stack.

 

[Thanee]

The problem is that this is not how stacking is defined in the game (or even in the FAQ when talking about stacking temporary hit points).

Then how is stacking of temporary hit points defined exactly?

Except that Resist Energy and Protection from Energy EXPLICTLY state how they work with relationship to each other.

Well, I totally agree, that the rules could be better written... but what can we do.

Temporary hit points do not, so we are forced by default to use the standard Combining Magical Effect rules as found on page 171 and 172 of the PHB. We have no choice. We cannot invent NEW rules and call them RAW.

Okay, reading through those options (none mentions temporary hit points or anything remotely similar), I go with the closest example in the rule... Energy Resistance! So they are both used up when I take damage.

Or, I use the "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant" part, since once I get new temporary hit points, my old are replaced, since they are not meant to stack and therefore should not be used successively (since that is what stacking of hit points is about primarily), therefore they are rendered irrelevant.

Could work like this:

I have only one "memory" for my character to remember temporary hit points. No more.
Once an effect gives me temporary hit points, they are moved into my "memory", the effect of the spell on my temporary hit points is then resolved and that spell is irrelevant for them from that point on. If I already have some temporary hit points, new ones are only moved in, if they are higher, of course, since the strongest effect applies. They are not added together, since they do not stack (except when from one particular single source, of course). The one's that were in there had been applied already, now they are gone for good.

So, the gaining of temporary hit points is an instanteneous effect of the spell that grants them. The spell does remember, tho, if I still have them "written in my memory" to take them away, if the duration runs out. Once a new spell takes over, this part becomes irrelevant, since the temporary hit points are no longer there.

When I cast Aid, the 5 temporary hit points are moved into my "memory" for temporary hit points. The spell is still there, of course. When I cast Vigor, the 10 temporary hit points take over (because they are higher), now I have 10, the 5 are gone. Once the 10 are used up, while both spells still operate and take whatever effect they do otherwise, my temporary hit points are gone. They are not written into my "memory" once again. Temporary hit points are a depleteable resource, not a bonus or effect as normal when stacking spells.

Both of this is certainly possible and much more likely to be the intention of the non-stacking of temporary hit points.

Do the rules say so explicitly? No, they don't. Much like what you propose, that's not in there either.

There is no rule to tell us how it works, we have to decide on our own.
There are plenty options, however.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Okay, reading through those options (none mentions temporary hit points or anything remotely similar), I go with the closest example in the rule... Energy Resistance! So they are both used up when I take damage.

Except that Energy Resistance does not work that way. Two Protection From Energy Fire spells on you are just as weakly defined as two temporary hit point spells.

Or, I use the "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant" part, since once I get new temporary hit points, my old are replaced, since they are not meant to stack and therefore should not be used successively (since that is what stacking of hit points is about primarily), therefore they are rendered irrelevant.

Could work like this:

I have only one "memory" for my character to remember temporary hit points. No more.
Once an effect gives me temporary hit points, they are moved into my "memory", the effect of the spell on my temporary hit points is then resolved and that spell is irrelevant for them from that point on.

When I cast Aid, the 5 temporary hit points are moved into my "memory" for temporary hit points. The spell is still there, of course. When I cast Vigor, the 10 temporary hit points take over (because they are higher), now I have 10, the 5 are gone. Once the 10 are used up, while both spells still operate and take whatever effect they do otherwise, my temporary hit points are gone. They are not written into my "memory" once again. Temporary hit points are a depleteable resource, not a bonus or effect as normal when stacking spells.

Both of this is certainly possible and much more likely to be the intention of the non-stacking of temporary hit points.

I agree that this is a reasonable house rule (not quite according to pages 171 to 172). Multiple Vigors works similar to this (with respect to itself). Except, Vigor does not replace the lower total with the higher total, it just replaces the earlier total with the new total (and assumes the Psion would not purposely replace a higher total with a lower total, but this could happen, say in the case of Personality Parasite)

Hence, doing it "just like Vigor" would allow an opponent to replace the 50 point Vigor with a 4 point Aid (as an attack).

Your suggestion (using the greater total) is more reasonable than how Vigor is actually written.

Do the rules say so explicitly? No, they don't. Much like what you propose, that's not in there either.

Actually, my "interpretation" is basically in there, it just is an annoying interpretation and hence, people will deny it's veracity, merely because it is so different than other spell rules and due to the fact that it illustrates how poorly RAW works in this case.


You are suggesting an Overlapping rule and trying to twist the Irrelevant rule into that. However, irrelevant spells do not get dispelled (the flaw in your interpretation ) and that is effectively what you are suggesting. So if you make it "irrelevant" as per your definition of irrelevant, the temporary hit points of the one spell should wouldn't come back once the duration of the more powerful spell goes away, but they should because irrelevant does not mean dispelled (although, this wouldn't work in all cases anyway because the weaker spell might go away first).


And you really had to twist it to get it there. I like the amount of mental gymnastics you used to get there.

 

[Thanee]

Why is that any more twisting than otherwise?

I just picked one of the various options just like you. No one is any more viable from the start, since none includes anything even remotely similar to this case.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Yeah, the Protection from Energy overlapping stuff could be more clear as well, but it's clear enough, that the intent of the rules in general is, that no two spells of the same effect (or even the very same spell twice) should have any added benefit.

 

[Thanee]

However, irrelevant spells do not get dispelled (the flaw in your interpretation ) and that is effectively what you are suggesting.

Nah, we are talking about spell effects, not about spells here. Quite a difference!

No dispelling there.

Single spells can have multiple spell effects. One spell effect can be ended without dispelling the spell. This does not work with all spell effects, just some. Temporary hit points is one such example.

Aid, for example, still gives a morale bonus for the remainder of the duration, once the temporary hit points are gone, be they used up or replaced by a higher total.

Bye
Thanee