Temporary Hitpoints

[Rkhet]

Also: with your version, if I have two Aids giving 10pts each, and I take 30 damage from an attack, what happens? Do I take 10 because the temporary points both cut in at the same time? Or do I take 20 and one Aid remains?

 

[Diirk]

Don't be fooled; what ARandomGod describes as his method for 'overlapping' is just another word for stacking.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Don't be fooled; what ARandomGod describes as his method for 'overlapping' is just another word for stacking.

Er, no, it isn't, because:

Also: with your version, if I have two Aids giving 10pts each, and I take 30 damage from an attack, what happens? Do I take 10 because the temporary points both cut in at the same time? Or do I take 20 and one Aid remains?

You are hit for 30 damage. You have 10 temporary hit points. Those 10 temporary hit points are gone, and you take 20 points of damage. Now, the second Aid spell is the strongest source of temporary hit points. It takes over, and you now have 10 temporary hit points on top of your normal (-20 from the last hit) damage.

If they actually stacked - in the sense of "All available at once" - then in the above case you'd only suffer 10 points of damage, as you'd have 20 temporary hit points.

Consider the following: There is a notional spell - Rush of Strength - which gives you a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength. This bonus attenuates over 6 rounds, giving +6 in the first round, +5 in the second, etc., until it reaches 0, at which point the spell expires.

The target of the spell is under the effects of a Bull's Strength spell, and has this spell cast at him. Since they both provide enhancement bonuses, the spells do not stack with each other. So, what enhancement bonus to Strength does he have in each round?

Round 1: +6 (RoS overlaps BS)
Round 2: +5 (RoS overlaps BS)
Round 3: +4 (RoS overlaps BS or vice versa)
Round 4: +4 (BS overlaps RoS)
Round 5: +4 (BS overlaps RoS)
Round 6: +4 (BS, RoS expires)

How is this any different from two spells, one of which provides 10 temporary hit points (Enhanced Defense) and one which provides 5 temporary hit points (Defense), in a situation in which the PC is taking one damage per round?

Round 1: 9 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 2: 8 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 3: 7 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 4: 6 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 5: 5 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 6: 5 THP (D overlaps EH)
Round 7: 4 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 8: 4 THP (D overlaps EH)
Round 9: 3 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 10: 3 THP (D overlaps EH)
Round 11: 2 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 12: 2 THP (D overlaps EH)
Round 13: 1 THP (EH overlaps D)
Round 14: 1 THP (D overlaps EH)
Round 15: 0 THP (D overlaps EH)

 

[KarinsDad]

Don't be fooled; what ARandomGod describes as his method for 'overlapping' is just another word for stacking.

What Hyp said. Overlapping and stacking are similar, but not identical, concepts.

Also note, if you do not want them to overlap in your game, you can use the "similar rule" rule in the DMG to have the highest temporary hit points replace. Vigor explicitly states that it replaces earlier manifestations with the current one, so you could have any source do this if you wanted to and still (sort of) be within the rules.

 

[ARandomGod]

Don't be fooled; what ARandomGod describes as his method for 'overlapping' is just another word for stacking.

It's true.
Well, not *exactly*. To be technical (and therefore very RAW) it's not stacking. However, I did put right in my original reply that it's so close to stacking as to be nearly indestinguishable. Or, to quote myself exactly: "They overlap in such a way that they might as well stack."

Er, no, it isn't, because:



You are hit for 30 damage. You have 10 temporary hit points. Those 10 temporary hit points are gone, and you take 20 points of damage. Now, the second Aid spell is the strongest source of temporary hit points. It takes over, and you now have 10 temporary hit points on top of your normal (-20 from the last hit) damage.

If they actually stacked - in the sense of "All available at once" - then in the above case you'd only suffer 10 points of damage, as you'd have 20 temporary hit points.

Actually, this is a third option... The one I espouse really is almost entirely stacking.

They definitely overlap. And I can see three ways this would work... all three equally valid by RAW... well, way one is stretching it a bit, but arguably valid.

1) They overlap. If one is stronger, the stronger one takes damage until it's equal to another one, at which point they both(all) absorb damage, both(all) being equal. Only one HP is actually stopped for all of the spells one HP spend to absorb the spell

IE:

A)Temp 10

B)Temp 6

You take three damage. Now you have A)Temp 7 B)Temp 6

You take two more damage. It removes on point from A, and then one point from A and B.

Now A and B are equal at 5 HP's. You take Six more damage. A and B both attempt to absorb 6, one gets through to you.

2) They overlap, each one taking precedence

A = 10
B = 6

You take three damage. Now A= 7 B= 6
You take two more damage. Now A = 5, B= 6 OR A=6 B= 5

You take six more damage. Now A = 3 B = 2 (Or vica versa) You have taken no damage

3)They overlap, only one per hit taking precedence

A = 10
B = 6

You take three damage. Now A= 7 B= 6
You take two more damage. Now A = 5, B= 6

You take six damage. Now A = 5 B = 0, dispelled. If you had taken seven damage, one point would have gotten through to you, and five temp HP's would be left.

 

[Space Coyote]

Since we are on the subject of Temporary Hit poins, I have a question:

Are Temporary Hit points considered "real" hit points for the purpose of determining if spells affect you? For example, if a character has 95 hit points maximum and 10 temporary hit points and then get hit by a Power Word, Kill spell. The Power Word Kill will not affect the character with less than 100 hit points. So, would the previously mentioned character be safe (because with the temporary hps they have 105) or affected (because their "normal" hps are only 95)?

 

[KarinsDad]

Since we are on the subject of Temporary Hit poins, I have a question:

Are Temporary Hit points considered "real" hit points for the purpose of determining if spells affect you? For example, if a character has 95 hit points maximum and 10 temporary hit points and then get hit by a Power Word, Kill spell. The Power Word Kill will not affect the character with less than 100 hit points. So, would the previously mentioned character be safe (because with the temporary hps they have 105) or affected (because their "normal" hps are only 95)?

They are part of your current hit point total, so no, Power Word Kill would not affect you at 95 normal hit points plus 10 temporary hit points.

Also, nonlethal hit points do not affect your current hit point total either. So, 105 hit points currently plus 104 nonlethal points of damage, Power Word Kill would not affect you.

 

[Diirk]

The str buff analogy is unfortunately a misleading waste of time as str doesn't fade as its used up like temporary hitpoints do. And thats the part people are arguing over. Noone argues that the most powerful effect takes precedence, there's simply disagreement as to whether all active temporary hitpoint buffs take 'damage' or not when you do.

I tend to think they do. After all, do you really want sorceror's running around with 10 false life's up at a time ? It also seems somewhat cheeky to take an effect that forbids stacking, and then define overlapping in such a way that you might as well be stacking...

 

[ARandomGod]

They are part of your current hit point total, so no, Power Word Kill would not affect you at 95 normal hit points plus 10 temporary hit points.

Also, nonlethal hit points do not affect your current hit point total either. So, 105 hit points currently plus 104 nonlethal points of damage, Power Word Kill would not affect you.

I agree with the above. But, of course, no matter how the spells overlap, only one applies as a bonus...

 

[ARandomGod]

The str buff analogy is unfortunately a misleading waste of time as str doesn't fade as its used up like temporary hitpoints do. And thats the part people are arguing over. Noone argues that the most powerful effect takes precedence, there's simply disagreement as to whether all active temporary hitpoint buffs take 'damage' or not when you do.

I tend to think they do. After all, do you really want sorceror's running around with 10 false life's up at a time ? It also seems somewhat cheeky to take an effect that forbids stacking, and then define overlapping in such a way that you might as well be stacking...

Well, as there's no precedent stating that they do *all* get used up for each hit, the default would be to say that they do not, and that each temp HP is only used up in an actual cancellation of one HP of damage. As the spell is written. There's nothing stating that more than one temp HP would be used up per HP of damage, so really that particular ruling does fall into non-RAW territory. Adding something that's not there.

Do I want it? Why not. Fighters run around with more than d10+10 HP's of damage dealing capacity per hit, and noone complains about that. If a sorc wants to spend ALL his second level spells on false life, then there are that many fewer scorching rays for him to throw. Overall winner, the non-sorc. After all, properly played the sorc will be behind the meat shield shooting scorching rays. If you can 'trick' him into wasting his resources in this way, it actually makes the enemies stonger, relatively speaking.

I've had it done regularly too... and not in a high powered game. False life is much less powerful than scorching ray. Or web... or a number of other options.

Plus I'm not defining it. That's the way the Rules As Written define it. Stacking isn't 'forbidden' to this spell, if it were explicitly forbidden, there wouldn't be this type of confusion, they would have written it out. But, since it's "forbidden" by the way the rules are written, and the way the rules are written ALSO state that they overlap in a way that's almost stacking, then that's not cheesy so much as it's just the way it's meant to be played. There are effectual reasons for it so be overlaping instead of stacking. Two of them have been meantioned above, in fact... Power Word Kill and Cosmic Connection. It DOES make a difference that they overlap in this specific manner instead of stacking.

And, as Patryn of Elvenshae's definition is equally as valid as mine... no more no less... then THAT way is also significantly different than actual stacking.