"Ten for That? You Must be Mad!"

[Hella_Tellah]

In every game I've run, a trip to town--or Ye Olde Shoppinge Malle--pops up between each adventure. Sometimes we want to roleplay the whole interaction, and sometimes we don't. For new players, the first question is, "how do I haggle?"

There's no hard and fast answer in 3.X. As far as RAW goes, the players should Appraise the item they're trying to buy before they even make an offer. They might use Diplomacy to make the shopkeep friendly and thus inclined to give them a discount. They could bluff their way to a lower price, or intimidate a price-cut out of the poor merchant. It's deep, it's roleplay heavy, and I think it's a lot of fun.

But what about hack-and-slash games, where most of that stuff should be automated? Even for roleplay-heavy games, sometimes the players just want to buy a grappling hook and get on with the adventure. In faster-paced games, I boil it down to "roll Diplomacy, maybe you'll get a discount." That's just a house rule, though.

Should 4th Edition include a Haggle skill? Should it be a specific application of a particular skill, the way Neverwinter Nights uses Appraise, or the way I've been using Diplomacy? Or should the default be the deeper, more time-consuming method described above?

tl;dr: How will we be haggling in 4th edition?

 

[Scribble]

In every game I've run, a trip to town--or Ye Olde Shoppinge Malle--pops up between each adventure. Sometimes we want to roleplay the whole interaction, and sometimes we don't. For new players, the first question is, "how do I haggle?"

There's no hard and fast answer in 3.X. As far as RAW goes, the players should Appraise the item they're trying to buy before they even make an offer. They might use Diplomacy to make the shopkeep friendly and thus inclined to give them a discount. They could bluff their way to a lower price, or intimidate a price-cut out of the poor merchant. It's deep, it's roleplay heavy, and I think it's a lot of fun.

But what about hack-and-slash games, where most of that stuff should be automated? Even for roleplay-heavy games, sometimes the players just want to buy a grappling hook and get on with the adventure. In faster-paced games, I boil it down to "roll Diplomacy, maybe you'll get a discount." That's just a house rule, though.

Should 4th Edition include a Haggle skill? Should it be a specific application of a particular skill, the way Neverwinter Nights uses Appraise, or the way I've been using Diplomacy? Or should the default be the deeper, more time-consuming method described above?

tl;dr: How will we be haggling in 4th edition?

I've used diplomacy vrs profession in my games, with bonuses for things like your own profession or knowledge about the items, and the NPC's disposition towards them...

I don't think the game needs a hard set haggling skill.. Seems too specific... And then the players will want to haggle for EVERYTHING...

 

[Hella_Tellah]

I've used diplomacy vrs profession in my games...

Yoink!

 

[Black Knight Irios]

David Noonan talked about incooperating a social encounter system, some of those encounters might involve haggling for things you want. You can give your players XP for those encounters. And even if you are not going to award any XP, you should still be able to use the system, for your little problem.

 

[frankthedm]

Problem is if the players start haggling over magic item prices, that can easily bork the assumed power levels in 3e.

Also players sometimes *say* they want a haggling system, when in actuality they want the chance to pay less without the chance of paying more.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

...your little problem.

You've never had players try to haggle and wonder what rules were applicable?

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Problem is if the players start haggling over magic item prices, that can easily bork the assumed power levels in 3e.

Also players sometimes *say* they want a haggling system, when in actuality they want the chance to pay less without the chance of paying more.

So true. The players too often have metagame knowledge of the "official" price for something and so will do the whole they bid low, you ask high thing until you meet somewhere in the middle, usually right around the list price.

While Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate work well for PCs against NPCs, they are lousy for going the opposite way. Players don't like being told they have to now believe an NPCs bluff because the NPC rolled really well on his check to convince the PC that the ring is the very same one worn by the second daughter of the Baron when she was sent as sacrifice to the Dragon and is worth so much more than just the value of its metal and stones. The players will usually just balk at the price and perhaps blame the DM for wanting to screw them out of the gold, or prevent them from having the item.

I hope the social encounter system comes up with a way to make this kind of negotiation into something where the players will accept they lost the same way they know they can lose a swordfight. At the same time I fear the social encounter system will succeed at exactly this and so another aspect of roleplaying will be subject to a set of rules and dice rolls.

I know I'm impossible to please.

 

[olshanski]

For some reason haggling doesn't seem all that heroic. If I wanted to haggle, I could do it easy enough in real life.

The less boring crap in the game, the better as far as I am concerned.

 

[MerricB]

You've never had players try to haggle and wonder what rules were applicable?

The rules are in Complete Adventurer.

Cheers!

 

[Deekin]

Rules Compedium has rules for haggling.

Diplo check vs typical DC+Sellers Diplo Modifer
if you succed, 10% discount. If you fail by 15 or more, the shopkeeper will not deal with you for 24 hours.