Tenser's floating Disk

[MKMcArtor]

Dragon Magazine does not have any more credibility than anyone else here on EN World. None of the articles are reviewed by WOTC R&D. They are reviewed by the editors of the magazine, which is no longer directly affiliated with WOTC.

This is false. Wizards of the Coast still owns Dragon. Dungeons & Dragons R&D, D&D's Special Projects Manager, and numerous other Wizards of the Coast personnel approve every article Dragon prints. Dragon stays in contact with Wizards of the Coast through each step of the process, and every article undergoes a multi-tierd approval process. Even the artwork that appears in Dragon undergo approval by Wizards of the Coast.

All the articles in the magazine is optional rules submitted by the players. That would be people like you and me, and everyone else here at EN World. However, the articles do not received the kind of intensive review that the people here at EN world would give it. Simply because of there are less people at the magazine that here at EN World.

True, and this is a strength of the magazine. Like any other publication dedicated to a hobby or pasttime, Dragon relies both on professionals within the field (from Wizards of the Coast R&D and elsewhere) and our enthusiastic fans and readers to supply us with material to print. Although our articles might not be scrutinized by as many different sets of eyes before it leaves for the printer as a rules descriptions on EN World, Wizards of the Coast considers those who do see Dragon articles expertly knowledgeable about the rules of the game. In fact, several members of our staff originally came from Wizards of the Coast R&D and Dragon's last three editors-in-chief have returned there.

The only part of the magazine which can be considered to have weight is whatever part of Sage Advice makes it into the FAQ. (And the FAQ has it's own set of issues and contradictions.)

Wizards of the Coast frequently incorporates whole articles or specific rules from Dragon into their products, the number of which are too numerous to bother mentioning. Check any recent D&D book's credit page and you will likely see a reference to Dragon or our sister periodical, Dungeon.

I don't consider the spells and feats from the magazine to be the yardstick for comparing core spells or feats.

That's fair, because Wizards of the Coast frequently allows Dragon to push the envelope and test new rules concepts they might not feel comfortable testing in a hardcover book. On the other hand, every spell or feat we print undergoes the same rigorous approval process of every other article we publish and are reviewed and edited by many of the same Wizards of the Coast R&D people who look at D&D hardcovers. Whenever Dragon publishes an article or rule that Wizards of the Coast considers untested or cutting edge we make it clear that such is the case.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Besides which, I think that Dragon magazine makes this all a moot point. It has much greater credibility than what any of us say on EN World, regardless of whether you choose to recognize it or not.

Personally I don't think that Dragon magazine has any greater credibility as a source for rules information (despite what it might say on the cover). I would expect any DM or gaming group to weigh up options and make their choices themselves. Nowadays they have many more sources upon which they can draw when making their decisions, but I'd guess that the vast majority of people will make decisions based upon their own perception of credibility - which might be Dragon, might be ENworld, might be RPG.Net or a dozen other avenues. Heck, even some of the things that WotC puts out in their official books have silly rules (deathless frenzy, anybody?). *Everything* can be evaluated for your own campaigns.

I'm just glad that 3rd edition really embraced this for the first time, and actually put it down in the rule books for everyone to read and enjoy. For the first time D&D encouraged DMs and their gaming group to sort out for themselves what rules tweaks they want to use.

Cheers

 

[Jalkain]

Caliban, I agree that taken by itself, the following sentence is ambiguous

'If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you.'

Taken alone, that sentence does not make it clear whether it is simply the distance which is adjustable, or the actual mode of operation of the disc. However, when we look at the first sentence in the description...

'You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you.'

This clearly indicates that the disc follows you, and this idea is supported when it talks about the disc accompanying the caster. Note that the only place in the text where it mentions directing the disc, or governing it's behaviour, is in the first of the above quotes, which talks about the default distance between disc and caster. Nothing else about the disc's operation is mentioned in that sentence, and the implication would seem to be that this is only that property of the spell which can be altered.

Assuming that you can set the distance to anything lower than the range of the spell, it seems fair to assume that you could sit on the disc (by setting distance to zero), but not ride on it, since it has to follow you. Whether you could get someone to push you, or have it lassoed and pulled along, or kicked down the corridor by an giant, is something perhaps best left for another discussion.

Furthermore, the Sage made a ruling on the 2nd Ed version of the spell, which in turn supported the 1st Ed DMG. I believe Dragon was affiliated with TSR back in those days, and so we might consider both these rulings to be official. It's already been stated on this thread that previous edition rulings shouldn't carry any weight, but it's not as if any of the relevant mechanics have changed anyway (movement and encumbrance are only somewhat relevant to the actual point under discussion, but in any case are still treated in much the same way they always have). If it was a spell that affected damage reduction/immunity, or number of attacks, or even one which required a saving throw, well, then we would have to be cautious, because all those things are handled differently in 3rd Ed. But a spell which creates a non-combat object, which then just moves about? Seems about as light on actual mechanics as it's possible to get.

Personally, I think this is exactly the kind of question where it is useful to go back to earlier editions and look at what the designers intended. And the intention was clearly was for an aid to encumbrance, not a form of personal transport. The idea of using it to avoid floor traps, to move silently, and to counter tremorsense, is a appealing one, but I think it would take the spell outside of its 1st level remit.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I totally agree that players and DMs have the final say on 100% of what goes on in their campaign. I don't look on Dragon as some sort of holy bible.

But my point is that a lot of people on the internet (and, as you said, this isn't directed at you) would like to think their opinions on rules are just as valid as those in an official source such as Dragon magazine. Sorry, but their views aren't. Yes, they might be in their own campaign but I'm talking about D&D as a whole. I don't care how many posts someone has, or how persuasive their argument, or how well versed in the structure of the English language they might be. WotC and Dragon are the authoritative voices of the rules. You sit down at any random gaming table and chances are your opinions are going to take a backseat to official rule sources. It's the only way to ensure rules clarity and consistency. If people think their rulings are so much better, then they should go get a job with WotC/Dragon and put the official stamp of approval on them.

As an aside, the greater Tenser's floating disc spell removes the restriction of the disc remaining within 3 feet of the ground. So it may be balanced for a 4th-lvl spell, maybe 3rd; I dunno, I'm not that well versed in gaging spell levels.

But I think the balance of evidence now shows that Tenser's floating disc is not meant to be ridden. Sure arguments can still be made either way, but I think it's just a matter of time 'til this shows up in a FAQ (and of course, people will still argue that the FAQ is somehow "illigitimate").

To be clear, it's your game - do whatever you want. It just irks me when people try to tear down official sources as being "illigitimate" just to justify their own positions.

 

[Fieari]

(snip)

Assuming that you can set the distance to anything lower than the range of the spell, it seems fair to assume that you could sit on the disc (by setting distance to zero), but not ride on it, since it has to follow you. Whether you could get someone to push you, or have it lassoed and pulled along, or kicked down the corridor by an giant, is something perhaps best left for another discussion.

(snip)

Set Follow Distance = 0.
Sit on the disk.
Set Follow Distance = -1.
Disk moves forewards.
You are sitting on the disk, thus you move with the disk.
The disk continues to move forewards, trying to reach Follow Distance = -1.
The disk never moves at a rate greater than your movement rate, and stays 3' above the ground, as mentioned.

I see no balance issues, and the rule looks like the above would work well enough.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The disk continues to move forewards, trying to reach Follow Distance = -1.

I've always preferred to sit on the disk, hang my feet over the edge, and then stop 'directing otherwise'... so it returns to its default behaviour of trying to stay five feet away.

It's the Tenser's Outboard Motor effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Jalkain]

Set Follow Distance = 0.
Sit on the disk.
Set Follow Distance = -1.
Disk moves forewards.
You are sitting on the disk, thus you move with the disk.
The disk continues to move forewards, trying to reach Follow Distance = -1.
The disk never moves at a rate greater than your movement rate, and stays 3' above the ground, as mentioned.

I see no balance issues, and the rule looks like the above would work well enough.

In the text it says the disc follows you. I think it goes without saying that the designers didn't intend that the follow range could be set equal to + or - the spell range, since I don't think I know of a single instance where negative distances are used in DnD.

In fact, to use your own mathematical approach, the text indicates that the disc follows the caster. That means that the set follow distance is a scalar, not a vector. In other words, you get to set the magnitude of the disc's position vector relative to the caster, but not any directional component. The directional component is determined purely by the relative positions of the disc and the wizard. You can change that by moving around, but not through any other means.

Since only the scalar component can be set, your use of negative numbers is rendered invalid, since a magnitude less than 0 is meaningless in this context.

 

[Jalkain]

I've always preferred to sit on the disk, hang my feet over the edge, and then stop 'directing otherwise'... so it returns to its default behaviour of trying to stay five feet away.

It's the Tenser's Outboard Motor effect.

-Hyp.

Brilliant! Although I reckon it would remain stationary until you move more than 5 feet away from it...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I would allow someone to sit on their own Tensers disk and move it, but such movement would require concentration (i.e. concentration check) each round to reflect "actively directing" it.

That's how I'd do it if the issue came up IMC.

 

[dcollins]

The Sage finally, kindly, got back to me with an answer on this issue. As expected, his answer is "no" just like it was in all previous editions of the game.

I guess I'll look forward to going over this all over again in 4th Edition.

From: <TSRsage@aol.com>
To: <dcollins@superdan.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Riding on Tenser's Floating Disc

> Skip, this seems to still be a source of confusion. Hope I haven't missed
> an
> official 3.x ruling somewhere:
>
> Can a spellcaster ride on his own Tenser's Floating Disc, using it for
> movement
>

Yours truely is no longer a source for official answers.

No, you can't use the disc for movement, it only moves when it follows you. I
suppose you could get abaord and arrange for someone else to push or pull you along.

When I'm the DM, you can't even climb aboard your own disc.