D&D General The 3.5 Binder was a really cool class

[Kurotowa]

I also just don't think base D&D 5E has the mechanically depth to really deliver on the diversity of the 3.5 Binder. A5E, maybe.

Simplicity can be a virtue, sometimes. The group in my current campaign hit 7th level recently. For most of us, leveling up took less than five minutes. The only one who took longer was the Cleric having to pick out their 4th level spells, and it was only a little while longer. And for most of the players, who are on the casual side and have less of the book memorized than anyone here on ENworld? They liked that they didn't have to spend half an hour combing through options and recalculating statistics.

So it's a question of priorities and trade offs. D&D 5e went with simplicity and ease of use, and the cost of that is that the design space is more limited. Classes can't get as weird or experimental. You need a more complex system with more moving parts for that. Which some games do offer, but at the cost of alienating the casual players who want something they can just pick up and play easily.

 

[Necropolitan]

Hey folks, can we either get back to talking about the Binder or let this thread die? Because I'd love to talk more about the Binder.

Started rereading my copy of Tome of Magic a couple of nights ago, and I'm pleasantly surprised by just how much of my nostalgia of the flavour is not, in fact, rose-coloured glasses. I will say though, that due to said flavour, it's even more tightly bound to a setting than even a cleric is. With clerics, their god can be abstracted (especially since you can "worship" a concept for your power). But with the Binder, each Vestige is a unique character, many of which their backstories and powersets are closely tied into a specific world's history.

I'd love to find other games with similar classes, where your bargaining for power with distinct entities is actually mechanically reinforced. It's almost enough to make me want to play PF1 again.

There's a Pathfinder 1st Edition Binder from Radiant House and a 5th Edition D&D version by Mage Hand Press.

I haven't finished reading the 5E version, but it seems promising in terms of providing the desired playstyle.

 

[BrokenTwin]

@Kurotowa Yeah, I'm not necessarily saying the level of complexity of D&D 5E is bad (though for me, it sits right in the uncomfortable zone of not being complex OR simple enough).

Ironically, I think Binder is a class that could be better expressed in both simpler AND more complicated systems.

@Necropolitan Huh, someone DID do a 5E binder? I'm curious enough to check it out. I've seen the PF1 version, and it's definitely better balanced than the original, though a bit less flavourful for me.

 

[Necropolitan]

@Necropolitan Huh, someone DID do a 5E binder? I'm curious enough to check it out. I've seen the PF1 version, and it's definitely better balanced than the original, though a bit less flavourful for me.

I'll post my opinion on the 5E Binder here once I'm finished reading it.

 

[Staffan]

The biggest difference I saw was how each new vestige really changed your role - it wasn’t a spell list, it was a set of at-will abilities that pushed you towards a specific style of play.

As I recall, the Binder was also one of the first places where we started seeing encounter abilities. They weren't called that, but some of the vestiges had abilities that recharged after 5 rounds, which basically made them 1/encounter.

@Necropolitan Huh, someone DID do a 5E binder? I'm curious enough to check it out. I've seen the PF1 version, and it's definitely better balanced than the original, though a bit less flavourful for me.

PF1 also had an official binder-like class in Occult Adventures, the Medium. They were more about channeling class/stat archetypes than the highly idiosyncratic vestiges the Binder deals in, though.

 

[fuindordm]

One of my biggest worries about a theoretical 5E Binder would be them just boiling it down to interchangeable spell lists in flavourless blocks. Like, I get the usefulness of having generic "Archer Vestige" and "Necromancer Vestige" divorced from a specific setting, but it just doesn't hit the same. I do like the basic idea of a vestige giving you a cantip, skill (expertise if you already have it), relevant tool proficiency, and/or an outright class ability.

One of the things that really impressed me with the Binder is that most of the vestiges avoided common stereotypes and archtypes