D&D 3E/3.5 The 4E Monster Manual -- what 3.5 monsters need the axe?

[Torm]

Let us, on a conceptual level, purge forever any "undead" that was never once alive, thank you. <snip> I may not use half of them, but that's no reason to prevent anyone else from doing so.

I agree with everything you said in this post, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. I still want those "undead" in, but they DO need to be called something else, or given an explanation that actually makes them undead.

"Actually in mythology" might not be the best argument. There are little elves that curdle your milk in mythology, but I don't think they should be in the MM.

I disagree. What's wrong with including creatures that serve a roleplaying purpose, rather than just being a combat adversary? I think it would be rare, indeed, to see the party face off a party of Dryads or Nymphs, for example - but it would be a darned shame if they were taken out. (If for no other reason than that it would make the MM fail to meet its hottie quota .... but I digress. )
I'll agree with you this much, though - "actually in mythology" isn't a good argument. WHOSE mythology, exactly? I mean, most of the campaign worlds we play in aren't Earth, or at least OUR Earth, so.....

I'd love to have a poll of how many people actually use the thing in a serious campaign, and I'm betting the numbers are pretty low.

[Raises hand] I've used it, and I thought it was a serious campaign, anyway - my players may have a different opinion.

Dragonturtle - It's that critter from Never Ending Story.

Giant floating turtles are from a much larger variety of sources than just NES. The aforementioned campaign world with the Tarrasque existed on the back of a giant space turtle that was loosely based on the Dragon Turtle - and strongly based on real Earth legends.

I think wholesale kicking out of monsters just because "they're goofy" is missing the point of D&D monsters.

Word.

I don't want ANY 3.5 monsters given the axe. And I want to see ALL of the 1E and 2E critters back in. Some refinement and rules clarifications are fine, but I want 'em ALL.

And I want Grues, both the elemental ones from Dragon Magazine and the darkness ones (Grue and Ur-Grue) from Zork IN THE CORE. (Won't happen, but an Implementor can dream... )

 

[Torm]

Erinyes

If you mean, get rid of the current version and make them RIGHT, as the Greek legendary Furies that they SHOULD be, then I agree entirely.

If you mean, get rid of them altogether, well, we're gonna scrap. I have used these extensively.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Noooo!!

Formians need to stay! They're the Borg of fantasy - enslaving everything in their path. What they really need to to be beefed up and the Formian Observer powers integrated into the race as a standard ability as a benefit of the hivemind.

I always thought the inevitables were pretty cool too.

I'm REALLY glad the Death Knight is going to be in MMI. That's definitely an iconic D&D creature that in 3.x didn't really get the love it deserved.

I love the Retriever too. . . its always been one of my favorite demons! Maybe just because of my arachnaphobia.

 

[Felon]

I don't know about "axing" monsters, but so many classic monsters are poor opponents that some heavy revision is necessary.

3e MM critters have two big problems: paltry AC, and lack of offense. The first is somewhat acceptable--it's only two-handing power-attacking that really makes it problematic--but the second really makes for some boring encounters.

The ogre mage was a great example of this, which no doubt is why Mike chose it for a makeover. The night hag is another one; she has a single weak melee attack, and a bunch of low-level spell-like abilities (sleep, for pete's sake).

Too many critters that just do 1d6 + Str mod, too many "big bruisers" who are weaker than the party barbarian, and too many that hang everything on one ability (medusa, mind flayer, I'm looking in your direction).

 

[HP Dreadnought]

I don't know about "axing" monsters, but so many classic monsters are poor opponents that some heavy revision is necessary.

3e MM critters have two big problems: paltry AC, and lack of offense. . . .

Too many critters that just do 1d6 + Str mod, too many "big bruisers" who are weaker than the party barbarian, and too many that hang everything on one ability (medusa, mind flayer, I'm looking in your direction).

It is true that at higher levels, moster HD, AC, ATT, and abilities just couldn't keep up with the PCs - making it harder to find worthy critter-type opponents for them.

 

[pawsplay]

I've used at least a dozen of these creatures in the last year.

 

[pawsplay]

Too many critters that just do 1d6 + Str mod, too many "big bruisers" who are weaker than the party barbarian, and too many that hang everything on one ability (medusa, mind flayer, I'm looking in your direction).

What strange examples. Mind flayers are grapplers who also have mind blast, and advance in character classes. That's one ability? And medua.... petrifying, poisonous archers. I fail to see the one one trick pony-ness there.

 

[Felon]

What strange examples. Mind flayers are grapplers who also have mind blast, and advance in character classes. That's one ability?

What a peculiar response. In combat, mind flayers just mind blast, that's about it (granted, there are those DM's who abuse the charm ability in battle by blatantly ignoring the +5 Will save bonus). They are terrible grapplers; with low grapple checks and weak damage. It's a tactic solely intended for pulling the brain out of a stunned victim's head.

Of course, advancing in a character class is rather beside the point, since a monster is at that point just doing what a human could be doing.

And medua.... petrifying, poisonous archers. I fail to see the one one trick pony-ness there.

Well, it handily meets the definition--firing worthless, weak-damage, low-DC poisoned arrows from range, and relying on the gaze attack up-close--so I"m not sure what your disconnect is there.

 

[Felon]

It is true that at higher levels, moster HD, AC, ATT, and abilities just couldn't keep up with the PCs - making it harder to find worthy critter-type opponents for them.

I also forgot to throw out kiteability as a persistent bane of 3e MM viability. Many of those monsters are utterly incapable of retaliating against a mobile opponent with a ranged attack.

 

[Jhaelen]

What a peculiar response. In combat, mind flayers just mind blast, that's about it

Sounds like you're using the non-psionic version. I'd never use that. Mind Flayers without psionics is like dragons without breath weapons. I'll never understand why they even bothered to put them into MM1.