D&D 4E The 4e Pit Fiend Revisited

[frankthedm]

I still like the pit fiend, though I strongly suspect many aspects of the fiend were chosen because he will be a warlock summon.

His weapon is a mace rather than a greatsword {granted maces are supposed to be akin to a ruler's scepter] costing 3.5 damage on each attack. Not that much damage difference, but there is some. His main power comes from his own summons, something the warlock won't have access to. The Pit fiend's XP value is 18000 and those two wardevils ,XP 4,150 each, almost account for half of it by themselves. Not saying the Pit fiend won't be usefull to have as a summon, but by himself with no way to summon other devils, he is not really a level 26 monster.

 

[Shroomy]

Based on the economy of action discussion, I don't think we'll see much if any PC powers that involve summoning monsters (maybe some kind of ritual, maybe), at least in the first set of books. Definitely not something as powerful as the pit fiend.

 

[Kordeth]

The Pit fiend's XP value is 18000 and those two wardevils ,XP 4,150 each, almost account for half of it by themselves.

So two level 22 standard monsters are worth just slightly less than half as much as one level 26 elite? What are the odds?

Not saying the Pit fiend won't be usefull to have as a summon, but by himself with no way to summon other devils, he is not really a level 26 monster.

I really don't get any of this. You're saying if you strip away the pit fiend's biggest power, he doesn't balance against other level 26 elites? Umm...isn't that kind of obvious? If I take away a level 5 ogre's "HULK SMASH!" power, he probably isn't balanced against other level 5 brutes, either.

 

[frankthedm]

I really don't get any of this. You're saying if you strip away the pit fiend's biggest power, he doesn't balance against other level 26 elites? Umm...isn't that kind of obvious? If I take away a level 5 ogre's "HULK SMASH!" power, he probably isn't balanced against other level 5 brutes, either.

All I'm saying it that the warlocks' ability to summon a Pit fiend is less potent than it first sounded. Up till now the Pit fiends personal power is where his OOMPH! came from. So when the wotc mentioned the warlock will be able to summon a pit fiend, that sounded really potent from the Pre 4E perspective. Now that the mechanics more out in the open, summoning the pit fiend is still cool, but the summoner is getting an Infernal Commander, who’s raw power now comes from his lackeys who won’t be there when he is on your side. IMHO it is similar to summoning a Balor, that arrives with no sword, no whip and no body flames.

"As a warlock, you are fluent int he universal language; Power. All creatures, no matter their species, alignment, or place in the world, speak the language of power. Or at least...they understand it when you speak the language of power to them. When you curse their every effort, summon a pit fiend to thwart their feeble attacks against you, then finally excise them from existence with an eldritch blast, they understand your power firsthand."

Dave Noonan from Wizard's Presents: Races and Classes

 

[Kordeth]

All I'm saying it that the warlocks' ability to summon a Pit fiend is less potent than it first sounded. Up till now the Pit fiends personal power is where his OOMPH! came from. So when the wotc mentioned the warlock will be able to summon a pit fiend, that sounded really potent from the Pre 4E perspective. Now that the mechanics more out in the open, summoning the pit fiend is still cool, but the summoner is getting an Infernal Commander, who’s raw power now comes from his lackeys who won’t be there when he is on your side. IMHO it is similar to summoning a Balor, that arrives with no sword, no whip and no body flames.

"As a warlock, you are fluent int he universal language; Power. All creatures, no matter their species, alignment, or place in the world, speak the language of power. Or at least...they understand it when you speak the language of power to them. When you curse their every effort, summon a pit fiend to thwart their feeble attacks against you, then finally excise them from existence with an eldritch blast, they understand your power firsthand."

Dave Noonan from Wizard's Presents: Races and Classes

For one thing, R&C is pretty out of date on a fair amount of stuff--warlocks might not summon stuff any more (in fact, wasn't there a whole blog post about how summoning is pretty much out of 4E until they figure out the economy-of-action issue?); for another, what makes you assume the pit fiend's summoning prowess would be axed if a warlock were to summon him? Summoning devils is listed as one of the pit fiend's per-encounter powers, I see nothing saying a summoned pit fiend loses that power.

 

[keterys]

So, I was playing around with a variant Solo style Pit Fiend and was wondering if any of the fine folks who debated the (de)merits of the Pit Fiend preview could give me any feedback. No big deal if not - it's just a good opportunity for me to get a feel for what would satisfy the folks who are turned off by the preview or turn off the folks who are satisfied with it

 

[ShockMeSane]

Very nice work as usual on the solo pit fiend. Only a few possible comments:

1) As you stated I imagine these hps might end up being a bit high, but then again who knows.

2) Making the explode demon-buddy attack enemy only is both unneccesary and a bit unrealistic. I assume all of these demons will have at least 15+ fire resistance, so I don't really think it would be problematic in any case. This is just a nitpicky minor issue either way.

3) I'm thinking a more offensive-related reaction might be required. This guy has so many hit points that he'd be fairly foolish to use his minions as hitpoint soaks, as he so desperately needs the extra damage output. I think you could stand to completely remove that reaction and replace it with something more offense oriented.

 

[keterys]

1) Yeah, that's the amount that a level 26 solo soldier with his Con should have... but whether you subtract for summons I don't know.
2) I thought about leaving it be, but when I removed the old slide 5 and made it an immediate instead I took away its ability to control where the explosion was as much (but also took out some of the silly that bothered some people), so I wanted to make sure it was always safe to use and the DM wouldn't have to take out a few minions or track a couple points of damage cause he happened to get lucky and roll 21+ fire damage. If legion devils have at least 25 fire resist, I'll take it off, sure..
3) I actually intentionally didn't include a reaction attack because he has so many attack actions via his minions, along with the aura, two ongoing damages, etc.

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback!

 

[ShockMeSane]

As far as the Minions are concerned, I'm thinking its a pretty safe bet that level 21+ minions won't die to any attack as Kobold Minions do. Of course, this is complete conjecture and I could be dead wrong. If I am dead wrong, then I definitely see the point of making it enemy only

Concerning the Pit Fiend's reaction: I have the same concern as you, that adding a reactionary attack MAY be overkill with all that ongoing damage in the form of auras, minions etc. However, as a DM I cannot see myself ever using the Charm Shield, as his summons have far more damage output/hitpoint ratio than the Pit Fiend himself. Regardless of what Minion Hp does look like at 21+, I still wouldn't be surprised to have a Wizard frost daily AoE that could hypothetically off all the minions in 1-shot.

I'm not really sure where the best middle ground on this is. Perhaps he doesn't even need a particularly useful reaction to be powerful, it's just so hard to say without really knowing what 26th level characters are capable of. I could see some kind of reaction that summons an additional Demon Legionnaire being extremely evil, though. Probably have to give it some kind of recharge so the players dont slit their wrists, though.

 

[keterys]

I'll admit that I suspect the attacks you'd be avoiding would be things like the Daily attack that gives your group a big bonus to hit for the entire fight, penalties for the encounter, stuns and such that are better off on someone consumable, etc.