D&D 4E The 4e Pit Fiend Revisited

[hong]

A 3.5 Pit Fiend is a reasonable opponent for a lvl 20 party. It is not a reasonable *encounter* for a lvl 20 party.

A lone CR 20 monster is an EL 20 encounter. By definition, it is a reasonable encounter for a 20th level party.

 

[Jack99]

A lone CR 20 monster is an EL 20 encounter. By definition, it is a reasonable encounter for a 20th level party.

Should I be scared that Hong seems to be the one that understands me?

 

[Kraydak]

A lone CR 20 monster is an EL 20 encounter. By definition, it is a reasonable encounter for a 20th level party.

By construction it is a walkover encounter for a 20th level party. Similar to, in 4e, using a single standard/elite monster against a party. When used against a lvl 20 party, to make a significant encounter, you are expected to provide it with allies, like standard/elite monsters in 4e. I am confused by people thinking that 3e/4e are any different in this respect.

 

[hong]

By construction it is a walkover encounter for a 20th level party.

Exactly. Hence the failing of the 3.5 CR/EL system.

Similar to, in 4e, using a single standard/elite monster against a party. When used against a lvl 20 party, to make a significant encounter, you are expected to provide it with allies, like standard/elite monsters in 4e.

No, you are supposed to make it the last of 4 encounters for the day. Cramming everything into 1 fight leads to system breakage.

 

[Jack99]

By construction it is a walkover encounter for a 20th level party. Similar to, in 4e, using a single standard/elite monster against a party. When used against a lvl 20 party, to make a significant encounter, you are expected to provide it with allies, like standard/elite monsters in 4e. I am confused by people thinking that 3e/4e are any different in this respect.

We (at least I am) are talking about what RAW says, not the reality of 3e. Two very different things. Yet again, if you add more monsters to the encounter, you will no longer have the ECL 20 encounter, but something higher, which, according to the rules, would take up more than 1/5 of the parties resources. In 4e, you should be able to avoid that, because the system is built around multiple monsters in each encounter (a pit fiend only takes up 2 of 5 spots in an Level 26 encounter, leaving room for 3 level 26 monsters or for example 2 level 26 monsters and 4 level 26 minions, without making the encounter any harder than it is "supposed" to be.

And that is the difference

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

By construction it is a walkover encounter for a 20th level party. Similar to, in 4e, using a single standard/elite monster against a party. When used against a lvl 20 party, to make a significant encounter, you are expected to provide it with allies, like standard/elite monsters in 4e. I am confused by people thinking that 3e/4e are any different in this respect.

They ARE different, though. As I explain above. 3rd Edition says that:

1 CR 12 monster
2 CR 10 monsters
4 CR 8 monsters
8 CR 6 monsters

are all EL 12.

They are all perfectly valid(and expected) encounters for characters who are level 9 through 15. A level 10 party who fights either any of the above should expect a tough challenge. Nowhere in the book does it say that you are expected to add minions to the CR 12 monster before you use it as an encounter. In fact, if you read through almost every adventure published by WOTC, you can see the exact opposite is true. Most encounters are against 1 creature. Because 4 CR 8 monsters or 8 CR 6 monsters are WAY too easy for a 10th level party.

 

[DandD]

"Challenge Rating

This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. "
Straight from the SRD. Now, in 4th edition, a reasonable encounter isn't one party of multiple persons versus only one monster anymore, but approximately equal sides dishing it out aganst each another, with Elites being worth twice, and Solos being up for to 4 monsters.

 

[Kraydak]

They ARE different, though. As I explain above. 3rd Edition says that:

1 CR 12 monster
2 CR 10 monsters
4 CR 8 monsters
8 CR 6 monsters

are all EL 12.

They are all perfectly valid(and expected) encounters for characters who are level 9 through 15. A level 10 party who fights either any of the above should expect a tough challenge. Nowhere in the book does it say that you are expected to add minions to the CR 12 monster before you use it as an encounter. In fact, if you read through almost every adventure published by WOTC, you can see the exact opposite is true. Most encounters are against 1 creature. Because 4 CR 8 monsters or 8 CR 6 monsters are WAY too easy for a 10th level party.

Which is different in 4e how (beyond a slight flattening of the power curve, 3e breaks past about +/- 4 CR, 4e, maybe +/- 6 levels)? A standard lvl 8 monster in 4e, supposed to have 3 companions when facing a lvl 8 party, would clock in at 3E CR 4. Funnily enough, when a lvl 1 party faced off against one (thread about it somehwere), the results were about what you would expect for a lvl 3 party against a CR 6. Shocker. 4e and 3e work out about the same.

You are confusing a presentation issue (3E's CR system is not clearly presented, people generally expect a CR X creature to behave as a CR X+2-4 one) with a mechanical one.

 

[hong]

Which is different in 4e how (beyond a slight flattening of the power curve, 3e breaks past about +/- 4 CR, 4e, maybe +/- 6 levels)? A standard lvl 8 monster in 4e, supposed to have 3 companions when facing a lvl 8 party, would clock in at 3E CR 4. Funnily enough, when a lvl 1 party faced off against one (thread about it somehwere), the results were about what you would expect for a lvl 3 party against a CR 6. Shocker. 4e and 3e work out about the same.

3E has no concept of minion, elite and solo monsters and hence by definition cannot work out to be the same.

 

[pawsplay]

By construction it is a walkover encounter for a 20th level party.

Exactly, like all other EL 20 encounters. If you want it to be a serious challenge, you send a 16th level party against it, or you advance it to EL 22-24. If you want it to be a legendary encounter, make that 15th level and CR 25, respectively, and the PCs will need some powerful one-use or enemy-specific abilities to have a fighting chance.