D&D 5E The 5E Swordmage / Gish thread

[mkill]

I'm a big swordmage fan, and the class is my favorite in 4E (tied with the Paladin). Since there was no thread about them yet, here is one.

First of all, there is the big question whether this should be its own class. Up to third edition, a combined spellslinger / melee fighter would have been a Fighter / Mage multiclass.

There is quite a list of Gish class precedents, though. You can count the OD&D Elf class and the Final Fantasy I Red Mage (in 1989!) as grandfathers. AD&D had the Bladesinger Wizard kit. 3rd edition had the Eldritch Knight PrC (and the Abjurant Champion, and some more obscure Gish PrCs) And then, there was the 3E Duskblade, which was its own class. In 4E terms, it would be a Striker. Oh, and there was also the Hexblade, which was kind of controllery. And then 4E came with the Wizard of the Spiral Tower, the Swordmage, and very recently new versions of Hexblade and Bladesinger.

I'd very much prefer a separate class in 5E too, because multiclassing was never without problems, in any edition. This would also allow to define unique class mechanics. This is important because a Fighter / Mage wouldn't have something like the Swordmage Aegis.

If I were to design the 5E class, I'd make two paths, one similar to the 3e Duskblade, which channels spells into a blade for Striker damage, and a Defender path similar to the Shielding Swordmage. I wish we had a clearer picture of the basic 5E design already, to go into more detail.

 

[drothgery]

100% agree that there should be a gish / swordmage - type class in the core. Magic user / swordsmen are a staple of fantasy fiction, and just fun. Multiclassing (and bards, and scratching off the word 'divine' from a cleric) has never really worked to build one, either.

 

[Herschel]

Yep, it's my favorite class ever in the game. The thing they missed, I think, is in not giving the Assault Swordmage his strength modifier boost to damage made with Aegis attacks like shielding got Con-Mod bonus to shielding.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The only gish in the game should be githyanki.

 

[Aldarc]

One of the primary problems of the 'gish' is that people always have different ideas as to how many parts wizard and fighter should constitute the class. But simply multi-classing fighter/wizard, no matter the levels, generally does not give the 'gish' its own unique abilities that would be ideal for a 'gish'-type class (i.e. hexblades, mageblades, swordmages, etc.).

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I could see it working to have these as the sole base classes (forgive the unimaginative names): Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, and then a class for each roughly 50/50 mix--Fighter/Wizard, Fighter/Cleric, Wizard/Cleric, and so forth. That's 10 base classes, all covering roughly equal territory.

Then let mutliclassing, build options, feats, theme, etc. handle the rest. If Fighter/Wizard (Swordmage) is 50/50, then a Fighter/Swordmage is 75/25 and a SwordMage/Wizard is 25/75. And an elven Cleric/Swordmage is 50/25/25. Use the other mechanics to tweak from those starting points.

But if this is to work, don't put too much concept specific baggage on the 50/50 hybrid base classes. Don't make the "Bard" concept the Rogue/Wizard, and then tack on music magic. Focus Rogue/Wizard on the essential nature of a sneaky, resourceful character that uses magic. Leave the "Bard" part for a theme or other means. Some of the old traditional names might still survive. "Paladin" can sit there on "Fighter/Cleric" without too much damage, I think, though it might not line up perfectly with everything Paladins did before.

 

[DonTadow]

If we stick to the core 3 classes, perhaps a special ability of the wizard (or fighter) will allow them to choose abiities from another class.

 

[mkill]

If we stick to the core 3 classes, perhaps a special ability of the wizard (or fighter) will allow them to choose abiities from another class.

Nothing against 3 core classes, I know at least one retro RPG that pulls this off quite well (forgot the name). But I simply don't see it happening for 5E, what with the big "play anything from any edition" motto, as opposed to "drop everything someone added after Arneson got kicked out by Gygax".

It's a guess, of course, but I think there will be some kind of gish class, maybe not in the PHB but some early supplement.

 

[KidSnide]

I agree that the gish concept needs its own class. Arcane melee abilities are a specialized set of spells/powers/class abilities, that don't shoehorn well into either the wizard or fighter domains.

Of the 4e implementations, I think the swordmage was strongest - both in fiction and mechanics - although I wish they had built a striker version of the class (which, admittedly, would be easy to house rule).

-KS

 

[mlund]

Since the Gish design is an arcane character, I'd put them under the Magic-User Super-Class (where the Wizard is the traditional controller as the default sub-class). A Striker variant of a Magic-User could be some sort of Sorcerer / Warlock mash-up with options to either go heavy on the ranged attacks (traditional Warlocks / Sorcerers / Warmages) or heavier on the melee side (Hexblade, Duskblade). Meanwhile a Defender variant would almost always be a true Gish - probably drawing options from the Bladesinger and the Swordmage depending on whether you want to manipulate your foes or ward your allies.

- Marty Lund