The 5e toolkit

[Andor]

I know this thread is "What do you want", but there's also a reality to this situation:

Some of the things people are proposing to toss out are what many people consider "D&D".

Classes
Ability Scores
The D20
+1 Swords

Etc.

I mean, consider the amount of people who said 4e is not D&D because it lacks x or y, or has z feel. By just butchering some sacred cows, you'll get an even more significant rejection.

So while some things you might want, they'd never happen.

This is true.

There is such a thing as product identity. If you love Jeeps and the dealer tells you that the new Jeep Grand Cherokee just came in and it's amazing you will be upset if you run down to the dealer and he tries to sell you a flamingo. Even if flamingos are the future of transportation, they can't try to package it an an extension of an existing product line. People expect jeeps to have wheels and use gas instead of krill.

Can you include rules for classless play in D&D? Yes. Can you make it the defualt assumption and not support classes in the base books of the new release? No. Not and maintain your product identity you can't.

I don't wish to derail my own thread, and any suggestions people want to make are fine, but it is a simple fact that a game about cybernetically modified my little pony clones fighting for market share in a space stations christmass shopping rush, where all game mechanics are settled by pillow fights, is not D&D.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm less picky about the particulars about exactly how things are accomplished than that those accomplishments are done with certain guidelines. (Exception--want wacky and flavorful magic items somehow.) For example, I agree that classes are required for D&D, but they can be tweaked to matter somewhat more or less. But however they are tweaked, the rest of the system needs to match.

These are things that D&D has been sort of spitting at since the start of the 3E design, but still not quite meeting:

1. The character sheet used in play for mechanical purposes should be relatively simple. As a purist, I'd like to say that the acid test is that the sheet should be one page, and not a crammed one either. Otherwise, the game is too fiddly on the mechanics level. Now that doesn't mean you can't have as many pages of description, background, etc. as you want. Those vary by game. And it is ok if you supplement those mechanics with extra pages, cards, notes, etc. such as power cards instead of looking up spells. And because I'm not a purist, I don't even mind an extra sheet or two of book keeping information needed when leveling, but rarely used in moment-to-moment play (e.g. list of all spells my wizard knows). But in play, a person that knows their character well should be able to look at that one page and see most of what they need. Or if you absolutely must, have one page for combat and one for non-combat--even if there is some overlap in content or infrequent flipping between the two.

2. Absolutely agree with Lanefan that the core of the system needs to be hashed out and nailed down in the opening set of rules--and preferably in one book, the PHB. Any rules after that should be modular options.

3. Core pieces of the game need to be detailed with some mechanical rigour, and stick to it. If "feats" are things that are binary abilities that any character can take--that is their mechanical niche--then don't make any feats that don't fit into that niche. If there are other things that keep cropping up that are sort of feats, then either find a different mechanical niche for those, or rework the mechanical definition of feats to handle the extra stuff. Both of those alternatives must happen before the game is released. (See #2 above.)

4. In the core system, everything needs to be at a similar level of abstraction. Modular options can change the level of abstraction--in fact, that is at heart the main reason for having modular pieces that work. But even then, there should be options that work at a given level well together. For example, if you have a core system where skills are things you do, based on ability scores, you might also have a short weapon list where the difference between a battle axe and a long sword is all or nearly all flavor. If you have a modular add-on that makes skills more detailed, you might also have a modular add-on of a longer weapon list with more details that matter. (For tradition sake, you might even have both modular, more detailed options presented in the same book with the core rules. It wouldn't hurt to get people used to options at launch. But those are different issues.) But however it is done, don't make abilities as skills as a very abstract core take on skills, and then get all fiddly with the weapon list as the core take on that.

 

[Rechan]

a game about cybernetically modified my little pony clones fighting for market share in a space stations christmass shopping rush, where all game mechanics are settled by pillow fights, is not D&D.

... I would play that.

 

[Lanefan]

2. Absolutely agree with Lanefan that the core of the system needs to be hashed out and nailed down in the opening set of rules--and preferably in one book, the PHB. Any rules after that should be modular options.

Slight disagreement here: the char-gen and enough other basics for players to play go in the PHB. All the rest (except for monsters) goes in the DMG: this represents most of the meat-and-potatoes of the game. In an ideal world the PHB isn't much bigger than a standard adventure module while the DMG is as big as it needs to be.

Lan-"and the Monster Manual is, well, monstrous"-efan

 

[steeldragons]

Slight disagreement here: the char-gen and enough other basics for players to play go in the PHB. All the rest (except for monsters) goes in the DMG: this represents most of the meat-and-potatoes of the game. In an ideal world the PHB isn't much bigger than a standard adventure module while the DMG is as big as it needs to be.

Lan-"and the Monster Manual is, well, monstrous"-efan

No disagreement here.

I might make the humble suggestion that, perhaps, the monsters might be included in the DM material, a la the Basic and Expert sets. So only 2 books (a PH and a DMG) are required to play at the get-go.

This, it would seem to me [iirc], also helps the budding DM as well as new players familiarize themselves with digestible chunks of the nigh infinite bevy of creatures available in a gaming universe.

You can always produce more "monster" books.

Just a thought re: packaging/marketing a "starting set".

Carry on.
--Steel Dragons

 

[Mark CMG]

No disagreement here.

I might make the humble suggestion that, perhaps, the monsters might be included in the DM material, a la the Basic and Expert sets. So only 2 books (a PH and a DMG) are required to play at the get-go.

This, it would seem to me [iirc], also helps the budding DM as well as new players familiarize themselves with digestible chunks of the nigh infinite bevy of creatures available in a gaming universe.

You can always produce more "monster" books.

Just a thought re: packaging/marketing a "starting set".

Carry on.
--Steel Dragons

I like this but would include a small section of animals in the Players' book with creatures like horses, camels, dogs, cats, hawks, ferrets, and maybe bears and some other more dangerous but familiar ones. It would help during play both regarding the keeping of domesticated animals and in allowing players to better understand the combat sections.

 

[Mark CMG]

The character sheet used in play for mechanical purposes should be relatively simple. As a purist, I'd like to say that the acid test is that the sheet should be one page, and not a crammed one either. Otherwise, the game is too fiddly on the mechanics level. Now that doesn't mean you can't have as many pages of description, background, etc. as you want.

I like this but would want a background summary right up top (on page one if more than one page) as a touchstone for roleplay and character advancement.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I like this but would want a background summary right up top (on page one if more than one page) as a touchstone for roleplay and character advancement.

Yep. I consider that part of what is required for play. Some people will be satisfied with that. If they aren't, and want more room, then chances are that you'll need substantial space for it. So that means at least a second page.

What I don't like is splitting the difference on this kind of issue, with character sheets. "Gee, two or three lines is not enough. We need seven to eight. But we also need room for spell lists, equipment, etc. I know, we'll have a two (or three or four) page sheet and the player can spread it all out!"

Much better IMHO to have the two or three lines and then supplement with a whole page more or less dedicated to background/description. Chances are, the people that really want a 1/4 page background spot will appreciate the other stuff on that page. And the people that don't want it can ignore it. When and if that page is prominent in the mind of the player, it can be at or near the top, in all its glory.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Slight disagreement here: the char-gen and enough other basics for players to play go in the PHB. All the rest (except for monsters) goes in the DMG: this represents most of the meat-and-potatoes of the game. In an ideal world the PHB isn't much bigger than a standard adventure module while the DMG is as big as it needs to be.

If the rules for play that are used by players are in the PHB, I'm good. To me, it is:

PHB: Stuff that players need to reference - multiple copies bought.

MM: Big list of monsters, because we like that kind of thing, and it is traditional now.

DMG: Everything else needed to get started, mainly being adventure/campaign and running the game aids and advice.

Don't put prestige classes in the DMG. Don't put optional rules in there (that players will reference if used). That is, don't put things in the DMG merely because they are optional. If it is that big of a worry, put a big bolded, 18 point note on page one of the PHB that says optional rules may not be used, at the discretion of the group, and the DM may have a big say. It's using presentation division to "shield" the DM from having to make that decision, but it is ultimately self-defeating. Players will read the DMG--or more likely, will read a message board post from some player who read the DMG.

I like Steeldragon's idea on the monsters being in the DMG. But given the ambivalence about the magic items being in the 4E PHB, and that the list was so paltry due to space, and that they want to sell books, I think a better breakdown might actually be:

PHB: All the reference material on characters and advice/rules of play that players need to know. Have a default campaign world, and include a "Players' Guide" for it, complete with gods, map, etc. Helps the new players get cranking right away, and even experienced players not using it can see it as examples of the kinds of things they might like to know.

Keep the page count low enough that a soft-cover option is available on later printings.

DMG: All pure DM stuff--running the game, adventure/campaign advice and aid, sample adventure set in that default campaign world, detailed example of how that campaign world and adventure were designed. A good sample of monsters and magic items that have twists or surprises related to them, compromising about half of this big book.

Monster and Equipment Guide: About half monster manual, with the more common beasties that people have heard about, mounts, and a few oddball things that are still fairly common. Also include common magic items, including enough samples of each type to teach players how they work. Put in all the mundane weapons, armor, and huge list of optional equipment (10' poles et. al.) that some people like to use.

Possibly rename the third one. The idea, it is a book that you only need one of in a pinch, but you really could use a few extra copies. It's all the stuff that is on the border between "everyone needs it for sure" and "only the DM should read this."

 

[Mark CMG]

If the rules for play that are used by players are in the PHB, I'm good. To me, it is:

PHB: Stuff that players need to reference - multiple copies bought.

MM: Big list of monsters, because we like that kind of thing, and it is traditional now.

DMG: Everything else needed to get started, mainly being adventure/campaign and running the game aids and advice.

I'd go with two books for rules and gameplay, one for players (with some animals and such included) then one for GMs with many of the typical cross-setting and mythical creatures plus GM guidelines for creating more. But I'd also have the setting books be the place for most creatures, common ones included in a player setting book and more information on those creatures and many others in the GM setting book.