D&D 5E The 6-battle adventuring day, does it even exist?

[abirdcall]

This is true especially for the horror genre. I'm not necessarily saying that resting without fear does drive tension, though.

Mainly, its the fear of facing something that may be stronger than you and you can't just back down. Its knowing that they have some tricks up their sleeves and not knowing if what you have will be able to completely handle those tricks.

Well, this analogy kinda falls flat for me in that FPS games have always been more about skill for me. Sure, ammunition is limited but I definitely don't remember the hardest parts about FPS's being how much ammunition I have. Its usually a balance.

I think a better analogy would be turn-based JRPGs as they're directly related to resource management without timing or skill hurting your overall gameplay.

But, actually, when I play JRPGs, its rare that the tensest moments are when I have low resources going into a fight. Those are usually just random encounters where if I get too close, I'll backtrack to the healing location.

In JRPGs, the hardest fights are boss fights and its never walk into those without full resources, yet a good and balanced JRPG will have me struggle regardless. Why? Because its usually managing turns and buffs/debuffs. Sure, I may run out of MP in the fight a few times but I will have plenty of MP recovery items so that resource in itself is still somewhat plentiful if need be.

I find myself in trouble when I have to do multiple things but only have so few actions. This usually occurs when one or more team members go down. Should I revive or should I press their weaknesses? Should I buff/defend against an incoming attack or try for an ailment to prevent action? Should I debuff or heal? These are the tension driving moments.

If I go to a boss fight without 100% resources, or close to it, I'd be frustrated especially at the random encounters and I'd consider it an overall negative experience. Having my resources drained isn't a fun experience especially since its before a fight where you know you should have as much as you possibly can.

The JRPG is a good example of something that should be avoided in TTRPG design.

First we have the random encounter that takes up the player's time in reward for experience. This is 'the grind.' I love random encounters in TTRPGs but I don't want them to be there just to take up time.

Boss Fights - As you said you are expected to be at 100% for these in most JRPGs (at least modern ones). Then the challenge is to do the strategy and tactics well. I loved Dragon Quest XI on harder monsters difficulty. I found a lot of the boss fights engaging. I even had to be a bit on my toes for regular encounters as they can spiral out of control. Thing is, if I lost I just loaded at my last 'save point' and then try again with what I learned from the last time. Can't do that in a TTRPG.

A D&D 5e game that relies on 1 encounter per long rest challenge is either going to be easy or going to be over quickly.

It's just not designed for it which is clear from the way classes are structured. There are classes that exist for people who don't like to run out of resources. Rogues have nothing to spend, why not play one of those? Lots of short rest classes to choose from too. The funny thing is that if you're used to playing only 1 encounter/long rest all those classes probably look terrible.

 

[mrpopstar]

I may be the only one that feels this way, but I rarely find resource management tense or exciting or even engaging. Its fun, for me, to manipulate my resources for maximum effect, but the process of running out and the actual state of low resources rarely gives me what I feel like engagement is.

It can be tense in a negative way, for me. I often just feel frustrated when I ever feel that my hand is being forced to use a resource I was saving and I get upset when a resource is wasted and doesn't advance our goals.

What does, however, make me feel tension and engagement is having these sudden realizations that the enemy we're facing might be stronger than all of us. We can't be sure, but they're casting stronger spells, they have high defenses, they have actions outside initiative, and the stakes to losing is clear.

Its not when we fight a vampire spawn and almost lose because we haven't rested for 5 fights that grants tension. Its when we're facing the infamous Strahd and we use our strongest attacks and it barely phases him that we start putting our game faces on. We're putting 100% and we don't know if we'll succeed. That's tense, imo.

Set piece fights have their place, but every dungeon delve should have at least some element of survival horror.

A dungeoneers pack includes a backpack, a crowbar, a hammer, 10 pitons, 10 torches, a tinderbox, 10 days of rations, and a waterskin. The pack also has 50 feet of hempen rope strapped to the side of it.

That's 10 hours of light and half a day's water.

Scary, no?

 

[Plaguescarred]

6-8 encounters / day is an approximation set up for budget ressource. It's similar to XP budget for monsters encounter difficulty. It's not a precise science but a rather vague approximation and actual play can result in different outcome from initial evaluations.

 

[Asisreo]

Thing is, if I lost I just loaded at my last 'save point' and then try again with what I learned from the last time. Can't do that in a TTRPG.

Save point mechanics are a large difference, but I don't think they distinguish what makes JRPGs tense vs TTRPGs.

The same threats can be used for each fight, one just goes lighter on those threats. Even if nobody dies, the act of being knocked unconcious can be nerve-wracking for players and having the enemy use the big ability makes them appear more fearsome. Its about the perception that it could all end here that's terrifying.

Set piece fights have their place, but every dungeon delve should have at least some element of survival horror.

Maybe, but I don't necessarily believe it to be "survival horror" in the dungeon delve experience that drives tension. Its adds atmosphere, but I'm not very scared if my only threat is light and food. Especially in 5e where these things aren't difficult to have.

 

[Scott Christian]

As I was listening to D&D live they mentioned the wild beyond the witchlight. Apparently it will be possible to complete that entire adventure without a single combat.

That is fine thematically, although doing away with a game pillar makes me question if it is actually a pillar. The bigger issue though is the 6 fights per long rest and 2 per short rest which is designed into the game balance. They clearly are not going to come anywhere close to this target if you have an adventure with no necessary combat at all.

To be honest I think the 6 fights per long rest is not really that common to start with in official content. In all the WOTC adventures I have played and DMed I think I have only had a handful of days that met that threshold.

I have never seen it in all my years of gaming. Maybe, just maybe , if you counted tackling some minions prior to the big-baddie coming out, maybe. But, for the most part, no way. The only way to do it is to have a bunch of underdeveloped encounters; ie. CR1 for a fifth level party, then at the end have a CR5.
Most groups I know stick to 2-4 with an exploration pillar in there. As levels increase, I have noticed it actually drops. I think this is in part due to the length of combat. But that is a guess.

 

[S'mon]

As I was listening to D&D live they mentioned the wild beyond the witchlight. Apparently it will be possible to complete that entire adventure without a single combat.

That is fine thematically, although doing away with a game pillar makes me question if it is actually a pillar. The bigger issue though is the 6 fights per long rest and 2 per short rest which is designed into the game balance. They clearly are not going to come anywhere close to this target if you have an adventure with no necessary combat at all.

To be honest I think the 6 fights per long rest is not really that common to start with in official content. In all the WOTC adventures I have played and DMed I think I have only had a handful of days that met that threshold.

I use 7 day Long Rests, which I find encourages PCs to get a lot done before resting. And random encounters make them anxious to keep some resources back. My Barrowmaze game yesterday, from what I recall:

9 giant vultures (bad luck on the wandering monster roll - killed a PC & an NPC)
4 hungry zombies
1 Crypt Shade
2 Stirges
4 Necromancers of Myrkul (3 Wiz-1, 1 Wiz-6, & 3 hungry zombies)

So 5 encounters, about average for that dungeon-crawl game. I think I'm seeing typically 3-6 encounters per LR. But back when I did overnight LR 1-2 was more typical.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Set piece fights have their place, but every dungeon delve should have at least some element of survival horror.

Didn't we have a thread about how a lot of people don't even do dungeon delves anymore?

 

[mrpopstar]

Save point mechanics are a large difference, but I don't think they distinguish what makes JRPGs tense vs TTRPGs.

The same threats can be used for each fight, one just goes lighter on those threats. Even if nobody dies, the act of being knocked unconcious can be nerve-wracking for players and having the enemy use the big ability makes them appear more fearsome. Its about the perception that it could all end here that's terrifying.

Being low on resources, which includes ammunition and spells, adds great tension to these moments.

Maybe, but I don't necessarily believe it to be "survival horror" in the dungeon delve experience that drives tension. Its adds atmosphere, but I'm not very scared if my only threat is light and food. Especially in 5e where these things aren't difficult to have.

Of course light and food will not be your only threats.

 

[mrpopstar]

Didn't we have a thread about how a lot of people don't even do dungeon delves anymore?

If there was such a thread, I don't think I contributed to it. ?

 

[iserith]

If there was such a thread, I don't think I contributed to it. ?

It revealed that a lot of people love playing Dungeons & Dragons (hold the dungeons, hold the dragons).