The "alien mindset" of a race

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
We were discussing this on the thread about forgotten realms cloakers, and it got me thinking.

The fact that a race, or type of creature, or whatever has an "alien mindset" and this somehow explains away all the inconsistencies the race has is a fairly common thing to find in fantasy games. However rarely is the way that this "alien mindset" functions explained. Which, frankly, leads to some really crappy roleplaying - it's basically impossible for a GM to roleplay out an "alien mindset".

On the other hand, a radically different mindset can be the scene of some really memorable interactions.

So - what I want from this thread is suggestions for alien mindsets. Either take a race which is supposed to have an alien mindset, and fabricate a radically different mindset for them which explains the features of the races culture, or just make up a new alien mindset and list out the consequences.

Included below are a couple of examples extracted from the forgotten realms cloaker thread:

me on another thread said:
Personally I'd say "cloakers are unable to conceive of things beyond their own personal experience" or "they've got no imagination". Which would explain why they can't do magic, and don't often do the things that people do - because they don't often come into contact with people, and they cannot think them up independantly. It also explains why they don't go exploring (they can't think of anywhere other than 'here' and 'over there').

Sejs on the same thread said:
Cloakers have a very hard time understanding individuality. To a cloaker there is no real difference between "me" and "we". Cloaker A is a cloaker, Cloaker B is a cloaker - that's the end of it. Human Adventurer A is not a cloaker, Drow Merchant B is not a cloaker - and as far as the cloakers are concerned, they both belong to the same group: Not Us. They just assume that those humanoids, no matter how diverse they are, are all part of the same collective whole, and they don't understand why or how the various sub-groups interrellate. It's just alien to them.

They don't learn wizardy because not being able to differentiate between who the magic is affecting is crippling to them. A Range-personal spell should affect this cloaker; but those cloakers and this cloaker are the same, so this cloaker's spell should be affecting them as well. So it tries to spread a range-personal spell's effect over the entire group and the spell just fails. It would try to have a ray spell affect all its foes equally, and fail. It would try to have an area spell only affect its foes and not include its allies or non-enemy objects, and fail. They don't go and try to conquer the surface because well... there's a whole lot more Not Us, than there are Us. The Not Us would win, easily. So it's best not to try.
 

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Snoweel

First Post
Saeviomagy said:
We were discussing this on the thread about forgotten realms cloakers, and it got me thinking.

The fact that a race, or type of creature, or whatever has an "alien mindset" and this somehow explains away all the inconsistencies the race has is a fairly common thing to find in fantasy games. However rarely is the way that this "alien mindset" functions explained. Which, frankly, leads to some really crappy roleplaying

:eek: :eek: :eek:

You've obviously never been a member of a LARP Club like mine! Why, just last weekend we had an overnight session at the squash courts where all 17 of us LARPed for 12 hours straight as a cave full of cloakers!!!!!!

Let me tell you the RP was intense.

Anyway, next month we're doing 'cave full of shriekers'. I'll let you know how it goes...
 

Incenjucar

Legend
The alien mindset is usually just an excuse to say "It's so weird I can't even explain it!". Honestly, I've never so much as encountered a description of an incomprehensible mindset. Most of them usually run along "Incredibly stupid" or "Incredibly Convoluted" or "Incredibly Conformist". Hiveminds, for instance, aren't that hard to comprehend.

The closest things to an 'alien mindset' I've dealt with have been nutcases, which aren't that hard to figure either.

What I find especially funny is when they use those mindsets to explain abilities like mental defenses.. but would they work versus OTHER alien mindsets..?
 

Dirigible

Explorer
Anyway, next month we're doing 'cave full of shriekers'. I'll let you know how it goes...

Loudly?

I can think of some examples of this from my own campaign settings.

With a concept semi-borrowed from Warhammer's greenskins, orcs are the way they are in large part due to the fact they don't feel pain the same way as humans and other races do. Physical violence does little harm to them, so amongst themselves there is no stigma to dishing it out - in conversation, orcs will regularly smash each other about the face and neck as a form of punctuation. When they do this to squishier races, though, it earns them a reputation for savagery and callousness. Because they learn to exert force to get what they want in everyday life, their entire culture regards violence as an appropriate way to get land, resources and deal with all outsiders.

Elves, which in my setting live slightly shorter lives than humans, approach every facet of life with vigour and a dedication to beauty and joy. All their senses are keener than a humans, and they have a racial bent towards hedonism, so aesthetics take pride of places in their system of virtues. The most important thing to an elf is doing something or creating something that will bring pleasure to others.

Whereas modern day, real world humans in the Western world arguably define themselves by their rights, dwarves define themselves by Duty. Their long lives mean long childhoods, in which they are raised semi-communally by the clan. This gives them a strong sense of community and loyalty, and a relativly weak sense of individuality. Dwarves are willing to subordinate themselves to the needs of the whole in a way that no human culture can match. The most important thing to them is crafting something that will endure, to pay their unspoken debt to the Clan that raised them.

What else comes to mind...

* If you had a race with powerful, natural abilities (great stats, natural weapons an/or spell-like abilities), they might fail to understand the need for the use of tools. Everything is either 'creature' or 'obstacle/environment' - which includes every kind of object or substance outside its own body and those of other beings.
 

Anax

First Post
So alien you can't even comprehend it is hard. Hard, doable, but tricky is "alien mindset that's almost, but not quite, like what you were accepting." In C.J. Cherryh's Foreigner books, the Atevi race is wired differently than humans as far as how social relationships work. It looks like people liking other people, caring in the same way a human would, but it isn't quite, and in those books Cherryh works hard to illustrate this. (The main character is the paidhi-aiji (lord translator) between the humans and the atevi.) Anyway, it all comes down to really subtle things. A human develops attachments to a number of friends, and those attachments can override any sort of sense of duty. A human can deeply care about people on both sides of some sort of feud. Atevi evolved on a world where pack structure is the main rule of the dominant species: there's you, and there's your alpha.

So when something bad happens, and a human jumps to be near a given person, a human would interpret that to mean "Ahh, he cares about that person and wants to stay close." You'd probably infer that the person was important to the human--perhaps a close friend or loved one. Perhaps someone the human was charged to protect. Perhaps the one to whom the human feels loyalty. An atevi would say "Ahh, that is where his man'chi lies", and would infer that the jumper respects the target of his jump as his ultimate authority. If a human hesitated between two people, another human might see it as a conflict of loyalties--do I protect my mother, or my liege lord? And we would expect any human in that position to have that kind of reaction. An atevi would see it as a crisis of man'chi--the one who hesitates temporarily does not know where his man'chi lies. This is a momentary aberration, before the person settles again and knows where his man'chi lies. An atevi who was unable to confirm his man'chi would be considered insane. (And in fact, a crisis of man'chi is mostly the atevi discovering that while he consciously believe he had man'chi in one direction, the instinctual man'chi in his hind brain was actually leading him elsewhere.)

Forgive me if I'm unconvincing that it's an alien mindset--it actually took me three times reading the full set of six books until I really started to grasp it. :) The whole point is a mindset that's not about taking some part of human behavior and making a caricature of it (like Klingons or Vulcans from Star Trek, say, where one is a caricature of uncontrolled passion, and the other a caricature of passion tightly controlled--perhaps too tightly). It's taking some aspect of behavior that we rely on, and making it not apply any more--in a way that's internally consistent and difficult to discern, except by a tingling sensation in the back of your head that says "that's not right..."


Oh, and in that series of books, the ease with which each side (humans and atevi) fell into assuming their new neighbor was the same lead to a cross-species war, which the humans lost. (And which lead to the creation of the office of the paidhi--the one human allowed to be in contact with the atevi.) (And no, that's not a spoiler.)


For the "so alien it's incomprehensible" thing, well... That's a hard one to model in any case. Especially because there should always be an internal system, which is something that human intellect is good at figuring out. I'd say that the best goal is one which a person *needs* to apply intellect to figure out. An example would be a race in which each member keeps a "score" that it assigns to each individual it knows. Depending on your score, your reception might ignore you, help you, or sneer at you. And the thing is, as you converse it constantly adjusts your score based on what you say. If you ever pass a "threshold", the creature's attitude changes instantly. If you choose the triggers for scoring well, this could result in behavior that outwardly seems extremely erratic and inexplicable. But there's a definite logic to it. And of course, you have to choose triggers that aren't what a human would expect. Perhaps kindness, charity, etc. don't matter at all. Perhaps the only thing that matters is specific topics of conversation. If you mention sunlight, you get 2 points. If you mention clouds, you lose 1 point. If you call treasure "treasure" you lose 2 points. If you call treasure "swag" you gain 1 point. (Okay, this example is pretty silly, but you get the idea.) *Then* add the following stipulation: only if the creature is grumpy will he help you with correct information about people. Only if the creature is happy will he help you with correct information about places. And of course, if your conversation is nonsensical or boring, he'll shoo you off.

The whole point is to make a system that the players (or their characters) can figure out, but will always have to think about, even once they know how the system works. "How do I converse with him while leading him to the state I need him in to answer my questions?"

Then once they have it figured out you start throwing in loops. Like the set of key concepts is slightly different from one tribe to the next. Just different enough that you could make a mis-step without realizing it.


What other alien motivations could we have... How about a strange devil that is creating a work of art. The work of art is the expression a complicated set of numbers as murders. pi, say. This demo wants to write pi in the language of murder. So the first day, he aims to kill three people. The second, he aims to kill 1 person, and so on. This is perhaps a bad example, because the players will almost certainly not be able to figure it out. But it gives an example of an entirely alien (or psychopathic) motivation in a more clear-cut situation than the weird talking rules above. (And, of course, psychopathic *is* essentially alien. A madman follows rules. They just happen to be rules divorced from those most of us follow. And most likely divorced from reality.)
 

Hand of Evil

Hero
Epic
You need to profile the race, listing the driving forces and keep appling them to the race. It will not give you a true alien mindset but it will give you something to work with.

Just ask how the race relates/reacts to the following:

Hunger
Fear
Love
Anger​
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
There have been a couple of times I've seen the alien mind set done well. I like how the slaracians in the Scarred Lands are represented and I think some authors including Hellhound have hit the nail on the head with their mind flayer takes.
 

Dogbrain

First Post
Incenjucar said:
The alien mindset is usually just an excuse to say "It's so weird I can't even explain it!". Honestly, I've never so much as encountered a description of an incomprehensible mindset. Most of them usually run along "Incredibly stupid" or "Incredibly Convoluted" or "Incredibly Conformist". Hiveminds, for instance, aren't that hard to comprehend.

I had a campaign wherein a character could have a hive mind PC, with one provision: The PC had to have amnesia. It had forgotten who and where it was, which meant that the specific drone that was out and about was particularly valuable--the PC had to find itself.
 

Ferret

Explorer
The Ilyameitr think in a way that assumes that everything has an order, all things are like gears they click, and fit, there is no chaos. If things don't make sense, the Ilyameitr get worried, luckily for them they can make sense out of most things.

Sorry to sound as though I'm boasting and pimping the Ilyameitr all the time.
 

Dogbrain

First Post
Ferret said:
The Ilyameitr think in a way that assumes that everything has an order, all things are like gears they click, and fit, there is no chaos. If things don't make sense, the Ilyameitr get worried, luckily for them they can make sense out of most things.

In other words, they're very human. We are intensely pattern-making creatures. We even invent patterns where there are none, just because it's what we do. That is how conspiracy theory stays supported. Good fencers manipulate this instinct.
 

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