The ally summoning ability of demons and devils.

[Ashrem Bayle]

Am I the only one who hates this? On an unlucky roll, the ECL of any given encounter with a demon or devil could suddenly skyrocket, turning a balanced battle into a masacre. For those who agree with me, what do you do to balance this? Do you get rid of it? What do you replace it with?

I'd considered dropping the ability and giving them levels of warlock to make up for the loss. This also solves the problem of warlocks, who are connected to demons, getting an eldritch blast, while demons do not.

Thoughts?

 

[TheYeti1775]

It's already calculated into the CR of a Demon/Devil isn't it?
Just like a Cohort is calculated into the Leadership feat.

But to keep it to a minimum don't let gated in Demons/Devils summoning more as well. It is also the reson for the Dimensional Lock/Anchor Spells.

Yeti

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

It's already calculated into the CR of a Demon/Devil isn't it?

Can't be. Take the Babau for instance. That's a good solid CR 6 creature (7 HD, some great immunities and defensive abilities, and +2d6 sneak attack). A nice challenge for a party of 4 6th level characters. But, he has a 40% chance of summoning ANOTHER CR 6 Babau. Suddenly, the PCs are in pretty deep.

That's two CR 6 creatures, and it remains an ECL 6 encounter. That's not right.

 

[TheYeti1775]

True, but is the Babau here naturally or summoned.
If summoned apply the House rule of not summoning more.

Other than that, PC's have to get lucky and take the creature out before it can call in an army.

Yeti

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

True, but is the Babau here naturally or summoned.
If summoned apply the House rule of not summoning more.

Other than that, PC's have to get lucky and take the creature out before it can call in an army.

Yeti

It's natural. And I think the house rule is a given, but the CR is still screwy. Imagine a Babau as a "boss monster" type creature. You'd want to throw it at a CR 4 or 5 group since it'd need to be a tough fight. There is a good chance somebody will be killed.

Now, if it summons a buddy, they are screwed. They'd have trouble with one CR6 critter, two would wipe the floor with them. In this case, the CR system is useless.

 

[TheYeti1775]

Sometimes a little DM fudge is needed, or a lesson needs to be taught about proper prep-ing. Protection vs Evil spells will keep the second from approaching since it is 'summoned' right.

Don't know what else to tell you for 5th level characters.
Except to win init, and beat them down quickly.

:\

 

[Gansk]

The original demon cannot summon an army per the RAW. Any summoned creatures are forbidden to cast conjuration spells (including teleport).

The demon should only use the summon as a last resort, as he will owe the summoned creature a big favor after the encounter is over. Essentially the first demon should be low on hp, spend a full round summoning, and hope someone answers the call. If no one shows up, he's dead, and if someone does show up, he escapes to fight another day and figure out how he is going to reward his buddy.

Thus the party should only be fighting one demon at a time, extending the battle but not necessarily doubling the power of the opponents.

 

[Elephant]

What's the problem? If summoning a second would ruin the PCs, then, as DM, don't do it. Also, keep in mind that demons/devils are loathe to summon aid because they hate to owe each other anything. That means, to me, that the ability doesn't get used until the demon is on the ropes - at which point, the appearance of the second one shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Land Outcast]

psst! rigg the rolls

want a Encounter Level 8? then make it happen automatically
wnat an encounter level 6? tem make it fail automatically

... bye

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Clearly I can fudge the rolls. That isn't the issue. I can make the game work and prep around it. The issue is that the system is sloppy, and if supposedly the demons and devils have this built into their CRs, what would the effect of removing it be?

Simply put, if a CR6 creature is CR6 because it can summon another CR6 creature, what CR should he be if I remove the his summoning ability?