The AP System --or-- Multiple attacks after level 20

Jack Daniel

Legend
The only thing that annoys me about epic levels is the dropoff of base attack bonuses. If a solar, with its meager 22 hit dice, gets five armed attacks, why is my 20th level wizard/5,000,000th level epic fighter forever frozen at two attacks in a round? A normal 20th level fighter could outmatch my epic character for speed. That defies logic. It makes no sense whatsoever. So, in order to throw epic multiclasses a bit of a bone, I've been working on a system that grants extra attacks after level 20. You can't just continue BAB -- that stacks attacks too quickly. You can't use EAB -- that means all characters get extra attacks at the same rate, which is bad: it MUST be based on character class. So, on to the system.

After level 20, characters start earning AP (attack points) based on hit die (since epic prestige classes have no attack bonus):
1d12 = 4 AP
1d10 = 4 AP
1d8 = 3 AP
1d6 = 3 AP
1d4 = 2 AP

Extra armed attacks, which come at the -5 iteration, cost 48 APs to buy, which basically requires twelve epic fighter levels, 36 epic cleric levels, or 44 epic wizard levels, or some judicious multiclass combination; the only reason attacks were broken down into APs in the first place was to accomodate multiclassed characters.

Extra unarmed attacks cost 24 APs, but may only be purchased with APs earned with monk levels. These attacks come at the -3 iteration.

At this point, implementing the rule requires the DM to make a call about the nature of his epic campaign. Do I still want my game to feel realistic, or do the players become wuxai heroes once they hit blackjack? It basically boils down to realism vs. wire-fu.

Realism Implementation: No, contrary to popular belief, "realism" is not a bad word in D&D. It simply means patterened after reality, where normal physics and limitations apply in situations excluding fantasy elements. The existence of wizards does not preclude realism from D&D, but that's a rant for another thread. This variant simply means that the above rules are used to accomodate people who become fighters and monks after level 20 -- the normal limits of four armed and five unarmed attacks are still strictly enforced for everyone except solars. :)

A DM who wished to preserve balance a little better could further rule that a character with 2 attacks earned no APs from wizard/sorcerer/psion/prestige-mage levels, while a character with 3 attacks could only gain APs from fighter/paladin/ranger/barbarian/prestige-warrior levels. That way wizards are still capped at two attacks and clerics and rogues at three, but multiclassing opens the door to more hits.

Wire-Fu Implementation: High-level heroes do things that Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragonball Z characters do. They can smack an armed defender ten times with a sword in the span of six seconds. With the Wuxai and Improved Flying feats, they can probably float around, too. In this sort of campaign, there is no limit on the number of attacks a character can build up -- a 50th level fighter enjoys six armed attacks, while a 50th level monk gets eight unarmed strikes. In order to cut down on the dice, all attacks after the first four (or five) are considered to take 10 and cannot critically hit or miss.
 

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Are you going to limit the number of attacks people can get? Also, you shouldn't use the Solar as a basis for epic level rules as it was created well before the ELH. Besides, it is the only creature to get five attacks. I'd say that's in error.
 

In a standard campaign? I'd use the strictest variant, which still limits wizards to 2 attacks and clerics to 3. In the setting I run now? It's all cinematic, so I wouldn't cap attacks (though I do cap advancement at level 50, so that places an arbitrary cap on attacks on its own).
 

How about a variant that allows characters to gain their iterative attacks once they have a certain number of class levels. For instance, any character which has at least 20 class levels in Fighter (or Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, ect.) gains the four attacks per round, while anyone with at least 20 levels of Cleric (or Druid, Rogue, or Monk, etc.) or 15 class levels of Fighter (or Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, ect.) has at least three iterative attacks. Since anyone with epic levels will have a base attack of 10+, that is all the rules needed to cover the contingencies.
This rule ensures that anyone with the same training as a basic class is at least "as good as" that class in terms of number of attacks, although classes with the same base attack rate do not stack (representing the difficulties of cross-training in a variety of classes).
 

Things don't exactly work that way. What about a wizard who decides to advance as a cleric and a fighter after level 20? When does he get his third attack? And it is possible to have an attack bonus below +10 before epic levels. A character who multiclasses to an unhealthy level (wizard 1/sorcerer 1/psion 1/cleric 1/druid 1/rogue 1/ex-monk 1/bard 1/psychic warrior 1/wu jen 1/shugenja 1/sohei 1/shaman 1/assassin 1/shadowdancer 1/red avenger 1/contemplative 1/arcane trickster 1...) can end up with a permanent BAB 0. It's extreme, but possible. :)
 

A 20 lv Fighter/ 20 lv wizard should get 4 attacks per round. It doesn't matter if he got his 20 levels in fighter first or his 20 levels in wizard first. Just recalculate his bab when he goes up a level but only use a maximum of 20 levels to determine the number of attacks he gets. I'm sure that's the way the Epic Level book intended it to work but they just didn't word it quite right.

Roger Bacon
 

Jack Daniel said:
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragonball Z
You just made my day with that! :D

Seriously, though, I'll think I'll limit the number of attacks to 4 only for simplicity's sake. I don't imagine a very-high level fighter having dozens and dozens of attack every round. Furthermore, the more attacks the fighter-types have, the less impact the spellcasting-types will have, since they'll still be limited to two spells a round with haste (one more if he has the feat that enables another free action a round).
 

Jack Daniel said:
Things don't exactly work that way. What about a wizard who decides to advance as a cleric and a fighter after level 20? When does he get his third attack? And it is possible to have an attack bonus below +10 before epic levels. A character who multiclasses to an unhealthy level (wizard 1/sorcerer 1/psion 1/cleric 1/druid 1/rogue 1/ex-monk 1/bard 1/psychic warrior 1/wu jen 1/shugenja 1/sohei 1/shaman 1/assassin 1/shadowdancer 1/red avenger 1/contemplative 1/arcane trickster 1...) can end up with a permanent BAB 0. It's extreme, but possible. :)

Well, my system definitely penalizes multiclass characters. I actually intended it to, since the EpicLevelHandbook does, just to a lesser extent. A character gets his second attack when he has as many class levels as a single class that has two attacks from BAB; he gets his third attack when he has enough class levels in a single class to get that third iterative attack, and four attacks only when he has 20 levels in a single class that gets four iterative attacks. It seems like a fair way to allow the 20th level wizard to become a buff fighter in epic levels; he's already set in his ways, and will slowly improve compared to someone who started as a fighter, but eventually his skills do approach the fighter's skills. When a character is still young and learning his skills (i.e. the first twenty levels), the fighting techniques stack, and the character's BaB determines iterative attacks. If you want to allow an improvement in iterative attacks after 20th level, then I think that making it based on class (and not stacking) is fair without making it easy to compensate for a non-combat focus at early levels.
 

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