The Apostate Paladin

[delericho]

I'd best state my biases up-front on this one: I really hate the 4e alignment system. IMO, it is the single worst feature of 4e, and I really wish they'd just dropped alignment entirely, rather than implement the system as they have done. That said, it does open one interesting possibility...

The Paladin class description states that a Paladin must be the same alignment as his deity, but also that once a Paladin is made, he is a Paladin evermore. (I can't provide the exact quotes, as I don't have the books to hand.) At the time, I took this to mean that a Paladin who changes alignment must therefore select a new patron deity.

But it doesn't have to mean this.

What if a Paladin changes alignment and refuses to choose a new patron, preferring to stick with the same patron? What if he refuses to have a patron at all? One could argue that the alignment restriction is required to become a Paladin, but that since there is then no means by which it can be undone that such a course is valid.

So, DMs, how about it? Would you allow such a PC in your game (probably not at character creation, but after)? Would you perhaps use such a character as a villain in your game? Might Anakin Skywalker remain a Jedi (not a Sith) even after his fall?

And if so, how would the rest of the church heirarchy react to such events?

(And, for the sake of argument, let's assume this comes out of genuine play, and not some attempt by the player to break the campaign or of an internet poster to 'prove' 4e is somehow broken.)

 

[Jack99]

I think it's a great idea, and would definitely allow it in my campaigns. The idea of playing a paladin who falls from grace, gets kicked out of the church, but continues to worship that god, has some interesting aspects I would like to explore.

 

[Irda Ranger]

What if a Paladin changes alignment and refuses to choose a new patron, preferring to stick with the same patron? What if he refuses to have a patron at all? One could argue that the alignment restriction is required to become a Paladin, but that since there is then no means by which it can be undone that such a course is valid.

So, DMs, how about it? Would you allow such a PC in your game (probably not at character creation, but after)? Would you perhaps use such a character as a villain in your game? Might Anakin Skywalker remain a Jedi (not a Sith) even after his fall?

And if so, how would the rest of the church heirarchy react to such events?

This would be great by my standards, but I run my Gods/Churches a bit differently than the 'standard'. IMC Gods don't have alignments but the alignments given in the PHB are the alignments of the most common/most powerful sect/church of that god in the world. So a Paladin that did this would probably be excommunicated but would have the potential of founding a new sect of the god that emphasizes a different aspect of the god's personality (or a different means of achieving the god's portfolio's ends).

 

[Mallus]

Something like this is going on in our 4e campaign.

My Dragonborn paladin originally belonged to a terribly literal gnostic sect called the Church of the Dragon Within, which believes every Dragonborn had a piece of the true Dragon God inside them. Each member seeks to 'free the Dragon Within' and reach their personal apotheosis.

(which is to say he worshiped himself)

This neat arrangement was complicated first by him coming into the possession of a small, unbreakable box containing an actual god (which he keeps hidden in his codpiece) and second by a false religion based around a feral dire pig sow that he was instrumental in creating, which is rapidly and mysteriously becoming less false, with a 'priesthood' of sorts capable of producing real miracles.

So now he's worshiping a holy Trinity composed of a tiny god in a box in his pants, the miracle pig, and himself. Further metaphysical wackiness will likely ensure as all this gets sorted out.

As for alignments... he's technically Good, though it's Draconic version of good that values cunning and expediency as much as it does goodness. The alignment of the box god is unknown, though it did help us turn a group of undead once, and the pig is, most likely, Unaligned (those she's depicted as benevolent in the scripture we're writing about her, The Porcine Gospels).

 

[Scribble]

I like this idea.

Since the gods are "distant" in 4e I see the paladin alignment thing as kind of a to actually join the order, and be accepted in, the paladin has to basically show he believes what the other paladins believe sort of thing. You have to be one of us to join us.

After you join the order, however, you have all you paladin abilities, and nothing really controls how you use them. If you go rogue, you go rogue. Others might hate you, and hunt you down for besmirching their name, but that's different.

I've always loved the idea of a Paladin slowly changing alignment because he comes to believe others in his order "don't see the truth." They don't see what their patron REALLY wants of them.

 

[Pbartender]

Might Anakin Skywalker remain a Jedi (not a Sith) even after his fall?

This is actually a perfect example...

Anakin Skywalker, after he fell, was effectively no longer a member of the Jedi Order. He did NOT, however, forget anything he learned as a Jedi. He still remembers and uses his prior Jedi training. And there is nothing to stop him from building upon that training to learn new "Jedi" techniques or developing his own.

That is exactly what happens to a Paladin who changes his alignment in 4E... He may get kicked out of his church and lose all benefits and support from that church, but he doesn't forget how to deal out a holy ass kicking and there's nothing to prevent him from continuing to perfect those techniques on his own.

In other words, yes... I'd allow such a character.

 

[jSpengler]

...he doesn't forget how to deal out a holy ass kicking and there's nothing to prevent him from continuing to perfect those techniques on his own.

The question here is the source of those divine powers. If the paladin's powers were martial, or even arcane, this wouldn't be as sticky of a situation. But since they're divine, it's assumed that their powers are given to them.

If your divine powers come from a cosmic impersonal force of good (or evil), changing your particular religious sect shouldn't matter in the least. If your power comes from a super-human-like deity that demands worship, then if you stop worshiping them they should have the right to revoke their power.

I feel that both options are completely valid: this is a question for the particular setting, not the rules.

 

[Hellzon]

On of the concepts on my noggin is a good (former) paladin of Bane.

 

[Agamon]

I don't use alignment, so it's a tough question to answer. If it came to light that the paladin went against the tenants of the faith of his patron, then yeah, he'd probably get the boot from fellow followers, but if the PC thought he was doing everything right, he'd still be a paladin. The way I see it, the paladin's power comes from his own faith tapping an outside source, not the source choosing him.

 

[Pbartender]

The question here is the source of those divine powers. If the paladin's powers were martial, or even arcane, this wouldn't be as sticky of a situation. But since they're divine, it's assumed that their powers are given to them.

If your divine powers come from a cosmic impersonal force of good (or evil), changing your particular religious sect shouldn't matter in the least. If your power comes from a super-human-like deity that demands worship, then if you stop worshiping them they should have the right to revoke their power.

I feel that both options are completely valid: this is a question for the particular setting, not the rules.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but the 4E PHB makes it explicitly clear...

[bq]"As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper with out any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful."

"Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful."[/bq]

Divine powers are not directly granted by the goods, and cannot be revoked in any way, should a cleric or paladin stray from their original beliefs. Of course, that won't prevent fanatic members of his former church or angelic minions of his former god from hunting the apostate down and punishing him more directly.